Wing vs. Jacket

[hg frogman]

That someone has no personal experience of using something doesn't automatically imply he or she cannot have a valid opinion about it. Just as an example, there is no need to use a sports car and a pick-up truck to guess which one of these is the most "streamlined".

BP/Ws have pros and cons ; claiming that they are more streamlined than (good) jacket-style BCDs is a risky proposition, in my opinion. And not every diver has to look like a cave diver (unless he or she wants to). And no configuration of diving equipment is the universal one that is optimal for any use.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc.

As a BP/W Manufacturer, can you link us to any studies measuring the coefficient of drag and venting ease of the 3 popular modern BC styles?

Since the majority of the leading edge of the Vest bladder is drafting in the "shadow of the shoulders/arms and the entire leading edge of the BP/W bladder is not drafting, what makes you think a BP/W is more streamlined?

Since the Vest bladder is closer to the body than the BP/W bladder wouldn't the amount of body position change from good diving trim to venting body position be less with a Vest vs a BP/W?

Since the kidney dump of a Vest BC is always right next to the body, wouldn't it be easier to reach than the butt dump of a wing, considering that the air you are trying to release is causing the butt dump to be farther away from the body than the Vest's kidney dump?

Please prove these, thank you.

There, now that we can follow the entire conversation....

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have my own method of comparative testing.

I offer a try before you by policy on our Frog BCD’s and our Frog Indigo Wings, try them in the pool or take them for a dive then choose. The outcome is that so far everyone has bought the wing.

Now I haven’t been recording results as to why they choose a wing over a BCD so I can’t prove that it’s because of streamlining and not because they just want to spend more money or look “cool” but maybe I can start handing out a questioner and see what results I get.

That is some impressive sales numbers; "everyone has bought the wing." There are many good dive outlets that wish that half the customer who compared two of their products in the pool bought one of the products!

You chose to become a distributor because you thought the Indigo you got was well designed, compared to other BP/W's. You "ended up" with the other Frog products, but that does not mean their vest BC is as good a design compared to other vests.

I did end up eventually getting a Frog Indigo and was very impressed with it. nearly identicle to the H with a couple of refinements and all the parts are interchangeable. I was so impressed with it that I became the Thailand distributor for Frog.

 

[halocline]

That someone has no personal experience of using something doesn't automatically imply he or she cannot have a valid opinion about it.

In a word, bull$hit. Sorry, nothing personal!

I will assume that halemano has never used a BP/W, since he has posted on this thread since I asked him straight out if he had, and chose not to respond. That makes him completely unqualified to evaluate BP/W performance. Simple.

Now, if I'm wrong about his lack of experience, let him speak up. I'll take it back.

Why someone would repeatedly post on this issue in multiple threads without any experience to back it up is beyond me. What's going on, halemano?

 

[Sas]

He has posted elsewhere that he has not tried one.

Halemano I presume you retract your claims about jacket BCs given you are not offering proof?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

In a word, bull$hit. Sorry, nothing personal!

I will assume that halemano has never used a BP/W, since he has posted on this thread since I asked him straight out if he had, and chose not to respond. That makes him completely unqualified to evaluate BP/W performance. Simple.

Now, if I'm wrong about his lack of experience, let him speak up. I'll take it back.

Why someone would repeatedly post on this issue in multiple threads without any experience to back it up is beyond me. What's going on, halemano?

He has posted elsewhere that he has not tried one.

Halemano I presume you retract your claims about jacket BCs given you are not offering proof?

Every time some BP/W Manufacturer, Retailer or Cultist "claims" BP/W's are more streamlined or vent easier I will ask my questions and basically "whack" the hornet's nest.

Even when a BP/W Manufacturer says "Most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc." I am wondering where the data is behind that apparent statement of fact.

I fail to see why the use of something makes it OK to use unsupported claims to sell said something and my questions about the unsupported claims are called BS because I have not used the something?

Just because someone chooses to turn my questions into claims does not mean I retract anything. My questions pretty much remain unanswered.

My claims are that; no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's vent easier.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Even when a BP/W Manufacturer says "Most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc." I am wondering where the data is behind that apparent statement of fact.

I personally speak with 5-10 divers every week who are considering the switch to a BP&W.

No one, not one, not one single diver has ever called me up and asked if I could supply them with a gas trapping sea anchor to tow around.

There is no well controlled repeatable test data to support the claim that a BP&W is easier to vent and lower drag than a jacket BC.

That does not mean there is no evidence to support that claim.

As I have already pointed, without response, in this very thread, the group of divers that have a quantitative measure of drag, i.e. cave divers use almost exclusively BP&W.

If they could penetrate further before reaching their turn pressures using different fins or different BC's etc. they would.

Further consider the near perfect record of satisfaction reported by BP&W converts here on SB.

The vast vast majority of BP&W converts report the BP&W is an improvement over their previous bc.

Many report reduced air consumption, and greater ease keeping pace with their companions. Even in the absence of hard data it is reasonable to conclude that this results from reduced drag.

Many also report they need far less ballast, much less than the ~6 lbs provided by the back plate, and improved buoyancy control.

Here again even in the absence of hard data it is reasonable to conclude that this is the result of easier and more complete venting.

If BP&W provided none of the benefits claimed by their proponents one would expect far more dissatisfied remorseful buyers. The unhappy are far more vocal than the satisfied.

Where are these folks?

Tobin

 

[Sas]

Just because someone chooses to turn my questions into claims does not mean I retract anything. My questions pretty much remain unanswered.

They were claims. You made claims about vest BCs. Still waiting for you to prove them or is it a case of 'do as I say, not as I do' with you?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As I have already pointed, without response, in this very thread, the group of divers that have a quantitative measure of drag, i.e. cave divers use almost exclusively BP&W.

If they could penetrate further before reaching their turn pressures using different fins or different BC's etc. they would.

In my view, I responded to that post.

Cave divers, particularly pioneering, exploration type cave divers highly value low drag configurations for the simple reason it allows longer deeper penetrations before reaching their turn pressures.

Few such divers choose a jacket BC


Cave divers / Wreck divers have a particular need for precision buoyancy control. Ease of venting is part of buoyancy control.

Again, few such divers choose a jacket BC.

Is this due to fashion or function?

Tobin

Are these cave/wreck divers diving with a single tank?

You do remember that the OP is "just out of OW and AOW," don't you?

Im a newbie to scuba, just finished my courses, but anxious to start diving on my own with my buddies.

Are you sure the "pioneering, exploration" cave diver's highest priority with regards to BC's is not best BC for doubles? Then after deciding on BP/W to handle doubles one might look for the "best designed doubles BP/W with regards to streamlining", not the very different "most streamlined BC."

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

They were claims. You made claims about vest BCs. Still waiting for you to prove them or is it a case of 'do as I say, not as I do' with you?

In your opinion, my questions were "claims."

In my opinion, I asked those questions of a BP/W Manufacturer hoping to get answers from that BP/W Manufacturer.

In my opinion, I have been trying very hard to "claim" that with regards to streamlining and venting there are no studies / data to support any "claims" with regards to which style BC is better streamlined or vents easier.

One can not generalize BC categories that way; there are better and worse designed BC's of each style with regards to streamlining and venting.

Anyone who makes a claim that "BP/W BC's are more streamlined than Vest BC's" or "BP/W BC's vent easier than Vest BC's" is laughably ignorant!