Cost of GUE/DIR training

[ScubaFeenD]

But if you'd rather go out to dinner once in a while, a good mentor is better than nothing.

I would argue that good mentors are sometimes better than a class, and I think its really awesome that you, and the communities on the west coast, have such a strong attitude in favor of mentoring. In fact, it has been one of the most critical aspects to my education.

Your absolutely right though. For a cash strapped person mentors can be the world of difference they need.

 

[Adobo]

Youre right, diving isnt cheap. But, I really dont like being told to find another hobby/sport to take part in than the one i love, which is SCUBA. Can I afford it? Probably not to the extent that some on this board can (with a garage full of gear), but I do know a few friends of mine that are in the same position as me and work hard to find deals, take care of what we have, and still dive safely in places that will allow us to grow as divers. All I am saying is that perhaps the burden should not be so high for some things, while for others it should. For instance, my assertion that fundies could be cheaper while tech training could be the same or slightly higher.

Further, i dont accept the idea that to learn to be a good, safe diver should be onerously expensive. GUE keeps A LOT of divers from going to it, because it is expensive. These are potentially amazing and safe divers, that given the correct initial exposure would probably continue high into the GUE training scheme. But, because they never get a real taste of what a GUE course is like, because of the high barrier to entry (price tag shock) will never know, notice, or experience the difference great instruction can make and just settle with crap.

I DO NOT believe this should be a sport of the rich, and the awesome sights underwater should be available to EVERYONE. Perhaps that is naive, but forgive me, I am still young and hold on to young ideals.

However, like i commented before, I have paid higher prices for quality instruction, and I will continue to do so, because I think it is a worthwhile use of my limited resources.

No one is telling you to find another sport. But, facts are facts. Even if they gave fundies away for free, diving would still be an expensive sport. And if $600 is quite literally making you choose between diving and paying rent, pay rent.

To do this sport on a regular basis costs a ton of money. And out of all the things that you will put your money into, training is probably the most important. If you are choking on $600 for training that teaches you the most basic and essential skills you need for diving then how are you gonna swallow the costs of tanks, regs, backplates, SMBs, drysuits, boat dives, travel expenses, etc.? Heck, there are probably at least $50 in bolt snaps/double enders on a fully kitted recreational diver.

Let me give you another real example, I have a set of doubles. Let's ignore the costs of tanks, bands, manifold and the purchase price of regs. For these doubles, I have two first stages and two second stages. Since I got these regs second hand, the cost of servicing these regs at my local dive shop is around $65 per first stage/second stage combo. Multiply that by 2. I have to pay that every time my regs go to service. And now, start adding in all the other crap that goes to service. Tanks go for vis every year. Inflator needs to be serviced due to corrosion. Drysuits develop leaks over time. Now add in the cost of fills, the costs of driving to and from dive sites, parking fees. This is all with local shore diving. Heaven forbid that you want to do a boat dive. Or how about diving somewhere other than your local area? Now you are talking about flights and hotels.

The thing that makes diving cost prohibitive is not the $600 fundies class. If you add up all the costs of being a regular diver, that is just a drop in the bucket. I hear you when you say that you are on a budget. Heck, one of my regular buddies is on a really tight budget. And the hoops he has to go through to save a nickel here and there are absolutely mind boggling. And of all the struggles he has had managing the costs of diving, never once did I hear him complain that it was the tuition cost of fundies that was doing him in.

There are ways to minimize the costs of diving. But part of the reason Fundies receives high praises is because the instructors that teach that class go through a pretty stringent vetting process (not any idiot can be a GUE instructor) and the instructor candidates go through an extensive/expensive ITC. To me, it doesn't sound fair to ask them to shoulder the burden of making diving a sport that is affordable to everyone.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would argue that good mentors are sometimes better than a class, and I think its really awesome that you, and the communities on the west coast, have such a strong attitude in favor of mentoring. In fact, it has been one of the most critical aspects to my education.

Your absolutely right though. For a cash strapped person mentors can be the world of difference they need.

This is true ... Uncle Pug taught me more about diving than I ever learned in a classroom ... and often with little more than a gentle admonishment to "rethink what you are doing and why you are doing it". I initially took Fundies because I wanted to learn the back kick ... but it was Uncle Pug's suggestion to "make it feel like you're pointing your toes down" that was the breakthrough to finally getting it. I initially took a GUE workshop to learn to dive doubles ... but it was the follow-on dives I did with Uncle Pug that finally helped me develop the trim and comfort level to dive them properly.

The classes give you the tools to learn ... the real learning comes with diving, and a mentor is the person who'll look at what you're doing and give you the real-time feedback to make the little adjustments that often make the difference.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaSam]

The classes give you the tools to learn ... the real learning comes with diving, and a mentor is the person who'll look at what you're doing and give you the real-time feedback to make the little adjustments that often make the difference.

Absolutely true! The real learning happens after the class, it never stops, well I hope it never stops.

In addition to mentors, my dive buddies are great about real-time feedback.

 

[TSandM]

I totally agree that, in the spectrum of costs of this sport, $600 for Fundies isn't going to be noticeable after a couple of years. Where I have a bit more trouble is justifying the disparity in cost between GUE classes and similar classes from other agencies/instructors. That disparity isn't nearly as great for Fundies/Intro to Tech classes as it is when you get into tech and cave. As I have said before, my Full Cave class cost me $800 in tuition; Cave 2 was $2000. It was one day longer. It was a more rigorous class, and had more academics, but although I don't regret having taken it, I think I'd have to be creative to come up with $1200 worth of additional benefits I got from the class, compared with the other one. For $1200, I could have taken Full Cave OVER again AND done a couple of days of one-on-one work with one of the ZG guys . . . At some point, even those of us who strongly believe in the quality of GUE training have to step back and wonder if the extra costs are worth it.

 

[lamont]

I think you are mistaken, at least in the present. Sure, as Lamont commented, GUE was initially formed to support the WKPP with divers that were at least minimally prepared to learn (at least that is what I understand). However, they ARE trying to change the industry, but not in the way PADI and NAUI have. Instead they are trying to create higher standards and higher expectations.

Sure, but JJ has basically stated in writing that GUE was founded on "you get what you pay for". He was an instructor and ITC/course directory/whatever for other agencies for a long time and saw the economic side from an instructor perspective for a long time before creating GUE.

I DO NOT believe this should be a sport of the rich, and the awesome sights underwater should be available to EVERYONE. Perhaps that is naive, but forgive me, I am still young and hold on to young ideals.

I agree with you in principle, but I don't see how to make that work in practice.

Of course most people don't need technical dive training and don't need a tech pass from fundamentals. Something like primer/essentials, plus some mentoring will get most folks to an entirely acceptable level for recreational diving.

We're talking about the >$2k sticker-shock for C2 courses out there, though, which is not something that everyone should be doing.

However, like i commented before, I have paid higher prices for quality instruction, and I will continue to do so, because I think it is a worthwhile use of my limited resources.

Exactly.

 

[Adobo]

I totally agree that, in the spectrum of costs of this sport, $600 for Fundies isn't going to be noticeable after a couple of years. Where I have a bit more trouble is justifying the disparity in cost between GUE classes and similar classes from other agencies/instructors. That disparity isn't nearly as great for Fundies/Intro to Tech classes as it is when you get into tech and cave. As I have said before, my Full Cave class cost me $800 in tuition; Cave 2 was $2000. It was one day longer. It was a more rigorous class, and had more academics, but although I don't regret having taken it, I think I'd have to be creative to come up with $1200 worth of additional benefits I got from the class, compared with the other one. For $1200, I could have taken Full Cave OVER again AND done a couple of days of one-on-one work with one of the ZG guys . . . At some point, even those of us who strongly believe in the quality of GUE training have to step back and wonder if the extra costs are worth it.

I really haven't done any research but if I was going to take cave instruction outside of GUE, I would probably consider taking it from Steve Bogaerts. I would think that he is about the equivalent of some of the GUE instructors in Mexico and Florida. From Mr. Bogaert's website, the price of Apprentice + Full Cave = $1000. Add another $500 for stage diver.

So the comparison is $1500 from Mr. Bogaerts or $2000 to stay within the GUE framework which is what I have followed for pretty much my entire dive career. And for the $500 difference, I get training that is consistent with pretty much all of the concepts I was taught in Fundies and Cave 1. This same training is not in conflict with anything I learned in Tech 1.

Now if you think about the costs of cave 2 diving... you now need at least 3 sets of 1st stages/2nd stages, on top of back gas (which might be mix in Florida), you will need deco gas. You have to travel to Mexico or Florida to get to the the cave 2 dive sites.

I dunno, if you were to ask me, even the $500 difference between GUE Cave 2 and Full Cave/Stage Diver from Steve Bogaerts winds up being in the noise in the grand scheme of the costs associated with doing those kinds of dives.

 

[lamont]

I dunno, if you were to ask me, even the $500 difference between GUE Cave 2 and Full Cave/Stage Diver from Steve Bogaerts winds up being in the noise in the grand scheme of the costs associated with doing those kinds of dives.

+1

I think some folks may be missing the forest for the trees here.

Of course they've done studies about how people are terrible at doing this kind of math -- they'll penny pinch and buy some $10 chinese piece of crap over a $20 quality thingamabob, while $100 extra for something useless on a $2500 flat screen TV doesn't bother them.

In this case, though, $500 is a bunch of money on a ~$2000 purchase. Except over 10 years of tech diving at $20k/yr total expenses (gear, maintenance, travel, training, gas, etc, etc, etc), it really isn't diddly in the grand scheme.

And a lot of tech divers are over 40 simply because at that age you can afford to do it...

 

[LiteHedded]

they should charge $3000

 

[boulderjohn]

And a lot of tech divers are over 40 simply because at that age you can afford to do it...

And maybe that's why we have younger divers with makeshift sidemounts exploring caves with no real training.

Part of the problem is economy of scale. It's like college textbooks on obscure topics. They cost a fortune in large part because the textbook company cannot make enough money through volume sales to make up for the cost of publishing. The more sales you make, the less you can charge for each individual sale. The fewer sales you make, the more you have to charge to make a profit.

The economics are complex. If you don't have enough students paying a reasonable fee to pay the instructor well enough, you have to charge the students you do have more. If you charge them so much that few people can afford it, you guarantee that you will never have enough students to charge a reasonable fee.

That's the problem with the concept of "you get what you pay for." That same textbook could be sold for a much lower rate if more students were buying it.

In a normal business mode, the idea for most products would be to lower the cost of the product in order to get more people purchasing it and thereby making it profitable at lower costs. Another model is to be content to keep the prices high enough to be profitable in a limited market. That works as long as you don't have any real competition.