Instructors doing "trust me" dives.

[catone]

Night dive at Vortex all the way to the gate, not having had any night or cave training/dives before.
The very definition of a "trust me" dive. All procedures (air sharing, signaling, gas management, planning and so forth) covered, plan agreed upon, equipment as required. It made for a great experience, felt very safe. Since then I got Night and Cavern certifications and looking back it was a very well planned dive. I am glad I did it, I would do it again with the right people/planning/equipment.
But an unprepared, on the fly "trust me" dive, following an insta-buddy? Never.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We've strayed rather far from the purpose of this topic. So to do a "reset" here, in case anyone's interested in discussing the topic John created the thread for ...

I realize there are some situations where instructors can take a diver on a dive beyond their current cert as an "experience dive." An example would be a cave instructor allowing an OW diver to dive a cavern area with them. These are not the types of dives I'm referring to.

I'm more interested in Open Water instructors taking divers beyond recreational depths or doing wreck penetrations, especially if not properly equipped with redundant air sources, etc.

Have you as an OWSI/DM ever taken a certifed diver or student on a trust me dive? (this will probably be rhetorical)

Have you as a certified diver ever been encouraged to do a trust me dive with an instructor or DM?

Please detail your experience for perspective.

I don't think he was asking about whether or not you've ever been on a trust-me dive ... but whether or not you ... as an instructor or student ... have ever done so as part of a class.

I have not. I do know of one local instructor who runs PADI Wreck classes for her students by taking them the length of Burma Road on the Sasketchewan (approximately 100 feet deep and running about 200 feet in an overhead) using single LP95s or HP100's and a 19 CF pony bottle. Given that most of these students are AOW certified and typically pretty inexperienced, I'd call that an example of what he's looking for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

As a sidetrack to my previous reply to Thal, I've seen several instructors on this board say that when they are certifying their OW students, they are in essence diving alone. Others claim their students are skilled enough to be a good buddy and react in an emergency if something happened to the instructor.

If you're diving with someone who doesn't have the skills to attempt* a rescue if something goes wrong, then I think both parties are on a trust me dive of sorts. One, because they're diving past their level and relying solely on their buddy, the other who is skilled, but is relying that they won't need their buddies assistance.



*I chose the word attempt, because sometimes in spite of best efforts, someone can't be saved/rescued. It is not meant to convey a lack of skills to do so.

 

[Cave Diver]

We've strayed rather far from the purpose of this topic. So to do a "reset" here, in case anyone's interested in discussing the topic John created the thread for ...



I don't think he was asking about whether or not you've ever been on a trust-me dive ... but whether or not you ... as an instructor or student ... have ever done so as part of a class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks Bob. It is the instructor/student relationship I'm most interested in, although it doesn't necessarily have to be in the confines of a class. It could occur just because your buddy happens to be an OWSI, without it being a formal class.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As a sidetrack to my previous reply to Thal, I've seen several instructors on this board say that when they are certifying their OW students, they are in essence diving alone. Others claim their students are skilled enough to be a good buddy and react in an emergency if something happened to the instructor.

If you're diving with someone who doesn't have the skills to attempt* a rescue if something goes wrong, then I think both parties are on a trust me dive of sorts. One, because they're diving past their level and relying solely on their buddy, the other who is skilled, but is relying that they won't need their buddies assistance.



*I chose the word attempt, because sometimes in spite of best efforts, someone can't be saved/rescued. It is not meant to convey a lack of skills to do so.

By definition, until someone's demonstrated the skill to me in an OW environment, I don't consider them competent to do it. There's a huge difference between doing a skill in a pool and doing it in OW ... at least, in the conditions we typically dive in.

In my typical OW class, underwater rescue doesn't occur until dive 4 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I'm with Bob on this one. I have checkouts in a few hours. One student and myself. None of his dives will be trust me dives. He has the skills and ability to do these dives otherwise we'd still be in the pool. He will participate in the planning of them. He can actually bring me to the surface if I lose consciousness, help me in a panic situation, and will at one point tow me to shore. He's already done these in the pool. He will also buddy breath with me on a swim.

All of my OW students are warned time and again about trusting someone blindly- including me! The lake where we are doing checkouts to day does not have any boats sunk. The quarry that does is where I test my students to see how well they listened. I will settle inot one just under the cabin roof while they are within arms reach in the open stern. I will motion them to go into the cabin for a peek. Not one has as yet and that is what I want. The correct response is a shake of the head no or a middle finger and shake of the head no! This is what they should do to anyone telling them to "trust me, I do this all the time!"

My own trust me incident happened on dive number 13. Really. With a DM who had been told to saty with me on the 25ft platform until I hit 500 or so then surface. When I got to 600 I showed her and she motioned for me to follow her. Instead of surfacing she led me to the instructor- at 50 feet! She was the DM so I trusted her to do the right thing. By that time I was below 500. We started for the surface with me next to the instructor. Did not know my SPG was off by about 300psi. At 26 feet there was nothing left in the tank. I made the OOA and he put his octo in my mouth. Led me to the shallows and allowed me to ascend from 3 ft under the surface by myself while he went and got the other students. When he and the DM surfaced he looked at her and before he could say anything she said "what the F did you want me to do?" She never asked if I was OK, was I hurt, not a damn thing. It was kept very quiet. Since that time I have always assumed responsibility for myself and require my students to do the same. THey are told that of they do a trust me dive and get hurt it is their fault.They are also told to assume that the DM/Guide who wants to lead them on one of these dives cares about only one thing. How big of a tip they will get.

 

[Jax]

Okay, I'm in.
Any dive that you are not trained for - is a trust me dive.

Any dive that you have no input or involvement in the planning of- is a trust me dive.

Any dive where you blindly follow someone because you feel that they are more knowledgeable/experienced and must know what they are doing - is a trust me dive.

Any dive in which you suddenly find yourself a level you are not prepared for, yet continue because you have a dm/instructor/ friend who knows a lot with you encouraging you to do it- is a trust me dive.

All of these dives have one thing in common. The diver has to agree to them. Yes the instructor/dm/friend should be aware that you don't know what you are doing or that you are not prepared for this dive, but at the end of the day, you are the choice maker here. You do a trust me dive out of ignorance, laziness, or recklessness. You can't be sheep, and how so many people allow themselves to be just that underwater, is beyond me.

A pinnacle dive is not a trust me dive. It is just the most challenging dive that you have done. You have trained for it and are now building your experience. You planned it, trained for it, and are carrying it out. Many people carry those out under supervision. That is not a trust me dive.

The bolded statement is where I have ... issue? ... confusion? ... with the "trust me" dive. You second statement almost contradicts it.

If I go somewhere, and pay a DM / dive op to take me all the wonderful places in their locality, I expect some will be pinnacle dives -- either because of visibility, current, environment, what-have-you. The DM, as local knowledge, will brief the site and plan . . . I won't say I have no input, because I know how to say, "no". But still, it is the plan of the guy with the local experience, not mine.

So, it would be "trust me", in that I am accepting his knowledge and experience. But it is not "trust me" if it doesn't pass through my common sense filter.

 

[drbill]

One of my dive buddies had her OW instructor take her down to 160 ft shortly after her certification. I found that pretty stupid. Interestingly, my instructor never got in the water with me except in the pool. That was back in the Dark Ages though.

 

[Jax]

Hi, Dr Bill!

You made me think of an interesting question - suppose I were to go out to CA and dive with some SBers there? Never dove CA, kelp forests, that cold-@$$ water, etc.

Is it a "trust me" dive?

 

[scubadiver888]

I was a newly certified dive. I foolishly believe an instructor would never put me in danger. I was only OW certified. Everyone else was navy divers on vacation. The instructor was my buddy. I ran out of air at 100 feet. She put me on her octo.

I'd say that was the first and last time I let myself get into the position were if the instructor died I wouldn't have made it back.