Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[*dave*]

I was trying to imagine this "skill" done horizontal and in mid water.

This is one way to do it:

 

[The Kraken]

So how is this your problem?

Nobody is going to do their checkout dives, and PADI won't issue a card without a real, active instructor doing the paperwork, so I really don't see it as an issue.

flots.

Because he is concerned,and rightly so.
You, or one of your loved ones, could be a dive buddy to one of these people.
Ignorance of facts is a most dangerous thing.

The Kraken

 

[peterbj7]

Just because someone knows how to scuba dive doesn't mean they are capable of teaching someone else how to do it

That's true of just about any activity and academic discipline.

As to self regulation, I have mixed views on this. There was an accident in a flooded quarry in Britain a few years back, resulting in the death of an AOW student and barotrauma injury to another. The inquest, and a subsequent investigation by the HSE (Britain's version of OSHA) were damning of both the instructor and of his American recreational certifying body, who had trained him and backed him during the inquest. Their view, which had the force of law, was that the training promulgated by this certifying body might be suitable for easy warm water destinations, but was was wholly unsuited to this dive and indeed to most British diving. Since then the HSE has exercised significant direct control at dive sites throughout Britain, enforcing standards which in some cases had been required by the certifying bodies, but not enforced and widely ignored.

I have dived all over the US but not in recent years. But down here in Belize I see many American recreational divers, some experienced, many less so, and of course I see how instructors and dive masters conduct their affairs. Overall the story is not impressive I'm afraid, and on the rare occasion there is sufficient direct evidence to report some malpractice to the certifying body nothing effective is done. During an abominably run dive trip one of the four divers died, and of course there was a tremendous upheaval about that, both by local authorities and by the certifying body. Yet a few months later the same individual was back conducting trips and dives to the same standard, and still advertising himself as regulated by the same certifying body.

I have myself reported serious malpractice to a certifying body, but nothing effective was done (if anything at all) and the same person continues with the same practice (he is the only instructor in his business, and he has other people "teach" courses which he then signs off. Often he isn't even present when these "courses" are going on).

So I'm beginning to think that we passed a milestone some time ago, and now there does need to be effective government regulation. It's already in effect happened in Britain and it needs to happen elsewhere. Sadly I don't think the Belizean government would be capable of regulating anything, which explains why standards here and in comparable dive venues are so exceedingly variable, ranging from the nonsense I described above to world-class training.

The government regulation I would like to see should be fairly transparent to the end user, and should primarily constitute regulation of the regulating bodies. PADI (for example) should be directly held to account for how it monitors and controls standards at any place permitted to operate under the PADI banner. That would include, for example, actually sending people to far-flung places like Belize to investigate reported malfeasances and accidents, and publicly removing their accreditation from offending people/dive centers. Such activity to be monitored by PADI's own governing body, the US Government (probably via OSHA). For "PADI" you can read any of the other recreational certifying bodies. What's happening now is a mockery - there are even accredited 5* centers here which don't own a compressor or a single tank.

 

[flots am]

Because he is concerned,and rightly so.
You, or one of your loved ones, could be a dive buddy to one of these people.
Ignorance of facts is a most dangerous thing.

The Kraken

While I certainly don't condone it, I don't think doing a pool session with a DM is astonishingly dangerous for the customer.

Also, people aren't stupid. If you sign up for a class, and the "instructor" tells you that you have to buy your books from one place and try to score a cylinder somewhere else, and that later you'll need to talk a "flexible" instructor into giving the test and doing your checkout dives, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something probably isn't Kosher.

flots.

 

[Peter Guy]

I've been reading this thread with mild interest, at times positively and at times negatively -- but in general, I just wonder as to why this was such a "disturbing" incident. While people have brought up some good points regarding the particular individuals perhaps not being qualified to instruct, more people have brought up bad points in my opinion.

a. Insurance -- Lots of people have insurance that cover a multitude of things and just because I have Scuba Instructor Insurance doesn't necessarily mean that insurance will protect a victim of my "negligence" while scuba diving. OTOH, just because a "mentor" doesn't have Instructor Insurance doesn't mean that she won't have insurance coverage in case the "mentee" decides to sue. So, in my opinion, the comments regarding "the lack of insurance" (and who knows if that is true -- perhaps the club has insurance -- I know my club does!) may well be bogus.

b. What's Wrong with Mentoring? How many times do we read that what a diver, any diver, needs is a Mentor. In fact, a local dive club has a formal "Mentor Program" where "experienced divers" are matched up with newbies -- and the Mentors aren't "insured" or "instructors" or "DMs" -- they are just more experienced. While they are working with "certified" divers, unlike the people that has the OP upset, this program is just one step removed from the OP's issue. While these particular individuals may not be doing a good job, there is nothing INHERENTLY wrong with having experienced mentors introducing people to the joys of "blowing bubbles" in a pool.

c. An Instructor Card means The Person Is An Instructor -- What? And how often do we read "It is the instructor stupid" when it comes to picking an instructor? We all know the piece of plastic doesn't an instructor make! Yes, it is more likely that someone with the card will be more qualified to teach, but "It Ain't Necessarily So." One of the best classes I've taken was a "Wreck Workshop" taught by two people who were NOT "Diving Professionals" but who, to the contrary, were just very good divers with a lot of experience, and thought, about Wreck Diving. BTW, the upshot of the workshop was being convinced I had NO business doing any wreck penetration which was really the most important thing I could have learned.

I am not writing this as a justification for what is/was being done as decribed by the OP but I think people have gone way overboard. The key is that people are getting poor instruction -- NOT that the "teachers" may not be insured, or don't have "formal" training or are doing it on the cheap.

Query -- would anyone be upset if the referral instructors had said, "These new divers are great with solid skills?"

 

[aikiguy]

The point is being missed about the roll of Padi in diving.

Padi is a Marketing organization, a very good one, but only a marketing organization. Professional Association of Dive Instructors. It is a privately held corporation that is only interested in generating income for it's owners. The more people pay into padi, the more money they make. Why would you eliminate clients from your income stream.

Lets look at it another way....

You have a business, which caters to other businesses, and you want as many customers as you can get to make the most money you can make. Your industry is small by market standards, and you currently have a huge percentage of the market. Your marketing abilities far exceed that of your closest competitors. However you do have competitors in your market. Your main product is in providing marketing products to your customers.

Would you seek to increase the cost of entry into the market by requiring increased standards of operation.

Would you fire one or more of your clients so that they could go to another marketing company, or even potentially start their own?

The separation between PADI and the business that they create marketing materials for is good for PADI. It is hard to be sued when you are the provider of marketing materials. Padi is not in the business of diver education, they are in the business of marketing materials.

PADI is great at what they do... If I were an instructor, shop owner, etc, I would sign up with PADI before I opened the doors. Being part of that marketing group is worth the weight of materials they send you in gold.

However don't expect them to kick anyone out of the club. That would decrease profits, and expose them to risk of other marketing agencies gaining a bigger foothold in the market.

If you want to start an organization that demands that people preform to a certain level of qualifications then you are going to have make that an enforceable system. The only way to do that is to have regulations and enforcement come from the government. If that happens then you will have to have some kind of real educational requirements, possibly starting with a real education component, some kind of proficiency in the classroom, and probably some higher education requirements. This would raise the cost of entry to scuba teacher significantly, and therefore be passed through to the students. The market would change drastically, most of those now teaching would never meet the new requirements. Yes the quality would increase, but it would effectively kill the hobby.

Right now anyone can teach a scuba class, there are no laws that prevent it. The only control that PADI has is issuing you a card to have tanks filled by a filler. The filler can ask to see that card as part of the his risk management.

Idiots will always do stupid stuff... There are good and bad educators out there. Most of them in the scuba industry are ineffective at education because they have no skills in teaching or communication. How much do you want to change the industry? How much more expensive do you want to make the cost of entry into the hobby? How much do you want to pay the government in licensing fees and testing fees. How hard do we want to make it to teach, and or dive.

A lot of people on this boards really want to come across as hard ass technical divers. However this is a hobby. A lot of people here that are already divers want to make the cost of entry into the hobby harder? Why? It seems they want the club to be more elite... Why? The hobby is already suffering from less and less participation due to economic and environmental pressures.

You really want to make people better divers? Start a club, a real club dedicated to making everyone in it a better diver. Low cost membership, lots of dives available, and lots of free and non judgmental help. Get people that walk through the door diving.... With experienced people that WANT to help new people.

Guy

 

[peterbj7]

If that's really the case then roll on, government control.

 

[The Chairman]

The point is being missed about the roll of Padi in diving.

Padi is a Marketing organization, a very good one, but only a marketing organization. Professional Association of Dive Instructors. It is a privately held corporation that is only interested in generating income for it's owners.

I am not trying to quibble, but PADI has a far different view of their mission. Lest we are accused of putting words in their mouth, here is how they see their raison d'etra:

Mission Statement​

Purpose
PADI exists to develop programs that encourage and fulfill the public interest in recreational scuba and snorkel diving worldwide.

Vision
PADI intends to be the world leader in the educational development of scuba diving professionals and enthusiasts.

Slogan
PADI - The Way the World Learns to Dive.®

Mission
We want to teach the world to scuba dive.

Values
In all of our relationships, we will demonstrate our steadfast commitment to:

Leadership — Being a world-class leader in every aspect of our business, in the way we design and develop our products, in the training of recreational scuba divers, instructors and retail and resort operators, in the support and service we provide to our professional members (instructors, assistant instructors, divemasters, retail facilities, resorts) in diving safety and education, in aquatic environmental education and preservation, in our management performance in our global marketing of scuba diving adventure and in developing our skills at every level.

Integrity — We honor our commitments, take personal responsibility for our actions and practice the highest ethical standards, treating everyone fairly with trust and respect. Our People — We value the skills, strengths and perspectives of our internationally diverse membership and employee groups. Our team will foster a participatory workplace that empowers our people to get involved in decision making and develops leadership skills at every level. We will continually encourage cooperative efforts at every level in our company.

Quality — In all that we do, we pride ourselves in performing it correctly and accurately the first time to the highest standards of quality and efficiency. We will strive for continuous quality improvement in all that we do in order to be the world’s premier recreational diving training and educational company.

Customer Satisfaction and Retention — Keeping customers satisfied and earning the continued loyalty of our members and divers is essential to our success. We will achieve total customer satisfaction by understanding what our customers want and delivering it flawlessly.

The Environment — In all that we do, we will strive to achieve our commitment to preserving the aquatic environment for future growth.

Underwater Cultural Heritage — We are committed to the protection of underwater cultural heritage for future generations of divers and nondivers alike.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Padi is a Marketing organization, a very good one, but only a marketing organization.

Cynical and inaccurate.

However don't expect them to kick anyone out of the club. That would decrease profits, and expose them to risk of other marketing agencies gaining a bigger foothold in the market.

PADI engages in regular audits or their dive professionals. Every quarter they publish a count of the number of instructors that are given mandatory retraining or other actions. Every quarter there are a number of instructors and shops who have had their PADI affiliation revoked and that fact is published to every PADI professional.

There are plenty of reasons to be critical of PADI. But their QA efforts for their instructors is simply not one of them. They are better at that than any other agency.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As to self regulation, I have mixed views on this. There was an accident in a flooded quarry in Britain a few years back, resulting in the death of an AOW student and barotrauma injury to another. The inquest, and a subsequent investigation by the HSE (Britain's version of OSHA) were damning of both the instructor and of his American recreational certifying body, who had trained him and backed him during the inquest. Their view, which had the force of law, was that the training promulgated by this certifying body might be suitable for easy warm water destinations, but was was wholly unsuited to this dive and indeed to most British diving.

I absolutely agree with that assessment ... it's a conclusion I came to about training people to dive in my area as well. It's the reason why I chose an agency that encourages me to train beyond those limits, and why I chose to train independent of a business that has an interest in keeping training costs as low as possible.

Training people to dive unsupervised in cold, murky water requires more effort and different emphasis on skills than training people to do group, led dives in warm, clear water.

So I'm beginning to think that we passed a milestone some time ago, and now there does need to be effective government regulation.

I believe those three highlighted words above to be a fundamental contradiction of terms. Sometimes ... rarely ... government regulation starts out being effective. But the nature of government regulation is that those with a vested financial interest quickly learn how to circumvent regulations they don't like, and change regulations to become more about producing favorable financial incentives than about anything remotely involving safety or common sense.

Considering the likelihood that those regulations would be written by industry lobbyists with financial motivations, and passed by politicians who know nothing about the diving industry, or the needs of its adherents, I am severely skeptical that they would be anything like "effective".

It's already in effect happened in Britain and it needs to happen elsewhere.

It would be interesting to know how effective British regulation of the scuba industry has been ... and whether it actually resolved the problems it was intended to.

Sadly I don't think the Belizean government would be capable of regulating anything, which explains why standards here and in comparable dive venues are so exceedingly variable, ranging from the nonsense I described above to world-class training.

Probably because just like everywhere else in the world, it all boils down to choosing a good instructor.

The government regulation I would like to see should be fairly transparent to the end user, and should primarily constitute regulation of the regulating bodies. PADI (for example) should be directly held to account for how it monitors and controls standards at any place permitted to operate under the PADI banner. That would include, for example, actually sending people to far-flung places like Belize to investigate reported malfeasances and accidents, and publicly removing their accreditation from offending people/dive centers. Such activity to be monitored by PADI's own governing body, the US Government (probably via OSHA). For "PADI" you can read any of the other recreational certifying bodies.

And so what you would end up with is a mish-mash of government regulations ... each of which would evolve along it's own lines of self-interest. In places like Belize ... or even the USA ... where politicians basically work for "tips" ... the regulations would most likely be written by the very agencies they are intended to regulate.

And so what, besides adding layers of cost and bureaucracy, would really get accomplished?

What's happening now is a mockery - there are even accredited 5* centers here which don't own a compressor or a single tank.

5* centers ... to my knowledge ... are more about the volume of sales than they are about the quality of services offered ... so I'm not seeing how that factors into the issue of self vs government regulation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)