Jacket BCD vs. Backplate/Wing

[Token]

This is all very interesting...

When I did my PADI classroom and pool training, BP&W rigs were never mentioned, much less demonstrated to the class. When I decided I needed [wanted] a second BCD for cold water diving, I went back to the same LDS that did my training, and they sold me a used Zeagle Ranger, despite the fact that the same LDS _does_ sell BP&W setups...they are plainly visible in a stack in the showroom.

In my case, at least, I had to find out about the BP&W on my own by reading on this Forum. Nobody was around to tell me about it...

 

[dmoore19]

OK, here goes. I have a Zeagle Stilletto. It is a back inflate. It is modular, I can replace the bladder or for lack of a better word on my part the "Wing". Most everything can be changed out if needed.

It has a couple of pockets that hold my small light, and my mirror for signaling and other small things I may want to take with me. It is weight integrated, I like it because I have not butt and a belt doesn't stay where it is needed. The weight system has the rip cord (so that the weights can be dropped quickly and efficiently if needed.

It is rigged with a crotch strap that keep is from sliding up. The BCD stays put where I have it. There are 2 straps for the tank which holds if firmly in place. There are weight pouches in the back that can be used to add weight for trim. I have had back surgery and the padding that is in the back keeps it comfortable. It has a velcro strap for holding the alternate air source in place.

Like BP/W if you over inflate it, it does have a tendancy to push you forward but if you let a little air out at the surface, all is right with the world.

It doesn't have 250 D rings. I am not sure what the weight is but it isn't that heavy and can actually be packed quite easily.

I got it for a good price, (from my LDS who helped me purchase and make sure it fit while in the pool with it). My LDS has BP/W and showed them to me when I was buying the Stilletto, it didn't look or feel that comfortable to me.

AND, very important, it fits me, is comfortable, I am in control of my bouyancy and even more important I like it. I have a Airsource 3 for my alternate air source. I also have a hoseless AI computer. With the AI computer and only 2 hoses the rig is clean, streamlined and very simple to use for me, again I like it it suits me and I will continue to use it with a huge amount of satisfaction.

"To each his own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.

I also find it surprising that there seems to be some kind of a conspiracy theory here that a lot of blame is placed on the LDS. I say if you don't like or trust you LDS, if they seem to be over priced, if you think they are trying to screw you or don't appear to be showing you all the options.................Go somewhere else!!!

Edit. It doesn't squeeze me when I inflate it, It doesn't change fit when inflating it. Did I say I like it because it suits me?

One more thing, if it doesn't suit you or your needs, don't buy it. I am not saying the Stilletto is the only BC you will ever need. It does however suit my needs. Thanks everybody!

 

[Adobo]

Wow, and now you are saying that every diver will, inevitably, need to be using a BP/W and it is "idiotic" not to buy one from the beginning. How presumptuous.

Sometimes it works better to read the lines instead of trying to read between the lines.

I don't think was the point at all, I think the message was simply plan for the future which is perfectly valid. The magazine article message is that one should buy gear equivalent to their experience level. That doesn't make sense. Why should one buy an "entry level reg" because they are an "entry level" diver.

It's actually a bit funny because the article does state that pretty specifically yet in another section touts the Atomic Cobalt as the greatest dive PC available. So the message being sent to the average diver is buy a "merely adequate" reg, stay away from a "tech" BC and buy one of the most expensive computers around - which "the average diver" will probably use barely 30% of its features.

Precisely. And if a someone concludes that the jacket bc meets their needs now and other needs they are likely to have in the near future, then great. At least they put more thought into it than simply concluding that "back inflate BCs are not for beginners."

Incidentally, in my opinion, dive computers are another area where a little bit of thought and reasoning can save a diver a bundle of money. It always blows my mind when I hear that people spend over $500 on a computer.

 

[cool_hardware52]

This is all very interesting...

When I did my PADI classroom and pool training, BP&W rigs were never mentioned, much less demonstrated to the class. When I decided I needed [wanted] a second BCD for cold water diving, I went back to the same LDS that did my training, and they sold me a used Zeagle Ranger, despite the fact that the same LDS _does_ sell BP&W setups...they are plainly visible in a stack in the showroom.

It's entirely possible no one at your LDS uses or understands how to sell / fit / adjust a BP&W, even if they have them in stock.

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

This is all very interesting...

When I did my PADI classroom and pool training, BP&W rigs were never mentioned, much less demonstrated to the class. When I decided I needed [wanted] a second BCD for cold water diving, I went back to the same LDS that did my training, and they sold me a used Zeagle Ranger, despite the fact that the same LDS _does_ sell BP&W setups...they are plainly visible in a stack in the showroom.

It's entirely possible no one at your LDS uses or understands how to sell / fit / adjust a BP&W, even if they have them in stock.

Salesmen will avoid offering things they are ill equipped to answer questions about. Much more comfortable to sell that they know......

Tobin

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

[Confession #1 -- I am a BP/W person, teach in it (when permitted) and encourage OW students to use one and I HATE, HATE, HATE jacket BCs -- always have]
[Confession #2 -- I haven't read every word of the prior posts so if someone has written what I'm about to write, please forgive me]

...

a. One size fits just about everyone;
b. It is very easy to adjust and fit; and
c. It is bullet proof and simple.

People who pontificate about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving just are either ignorant or have some other agenda or some combination thereof. YMMV

If we look at the bolded (by me) portions in the above quote, perhaps the recurring train wrecks of threads on this topic can largely be understood:

HATE is a really strong emotion, especially in ALL CAPS! :shocked2:

A discussion is a two way street; in order to exchange opinions one must actually read the other participants opinions.

Now, if we look at the underlined (by me) portion in the above quote, I extend a challenge:

Go back through the entire thread and list ALL the VEST BC proponents pontificating about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving.

I did read every word in this thread before I made my first post, and now I have read every word twice to come up with my list of ALL the BP/W BC Proponents pontificating about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving:

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Here are what I found for posts from BP/W BC Proponents who are very close to pontificating about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving.

Also, notice everyone following the OP's usage of "jacket" as a descriptor for the "vest" BC; kind of like using the N word instead of negro, IMHO.

I will throw my 2 cents into this. As an instructor I train all my Open Water divers in the use of a jacket style BCD and weight belt and I wear them myself when training OW students. I do this for several reasons. I think a jacket gives better floatation at the surface, face up and is more stable and to some degree more comfortable to wear for novice divers and they have pockets to put additional gear into. Also a cheap decent quality jacket BCD is half the price of a cheap back plate set up from a company like for example IST Sports, I am looking at an IST catalogue right now. In addition many students do not wish to buy gear right away and will go off on vacation and rent gear for months or years before buying their own kit. Hardly any dive shop I know in Asia rents wings and backplates. If you walk into a shop to rent gear for a days diving you will be offered a jacket BCD. If you buy a jacket style BCD it comes ready assembled and you can dive it more or less (with minor adjustments) right out of the box, if you buy a wing and a back plate you have to assemble it yourself, well at least in Taiwan you do, unless your dealer is kind enough to assemble it for you. Assembling a back plate and wing takes time, especially the first time you do this. Based on the above criteria I would say a jacket style BCD is far simpler and user friendly for novice divers. Having said that I use a backplate and wing for all my fun diving and dive trips. However if you find yourself out at sea in a heavy chop or a big swell, a jacket style BCD has advantages over a back plate as you do not have to adjust the straps to float face up and clear of the water.

I'd bet the average diver (who is the target of the magazine) just doesn't care.
They don't care that they can replace the webbing if it wears out or gets cut
They don't care that plastic buckles are a potential failure point
They don't care whether their fin has a split in it (gasp!)
They don't care that 45 lbs of lift is way more than necessary for Caribbean reef diving
They don't want to figure out how much lift they need (most are probably happily oblivious to the fact that it's even an option)
They don't want to decide whether to use an STA or not (they probably don't even care to know what one is)

What they do care about is that they can walk into a dive shop, buy something and put a tank on it. No assembly required, no wing lift charts to fill out. And for most people that's not really a bad thing (assuming they are competent enough to be safe).

Using bicycles as an example - One can build a much better bike buying an individual frame, wheels, crank set, gear set blah blah blah. But the average bike owner (of which I am ) just wants to walk into a bike store and leave with a bike they can ride it around.

I do think that, from the standpoint of a brand new diver, a backplate setup is more complicated. There are more decisions to make (how much lift do I need? Torus or doughnut wing?) and it is not obvious how to accomplish some of the basic functions a standard BC makes simple (weight placement? Storage?). I do not think, with even semi-competent assistance, that these issues make a backplate system a bad choice for a new diver, and in some settings (like very cold water) backplate setups, because of their intrinsic ballast, make the best choice. And dismissing them out of hand as too much for novices is uncalled-for.

But you can make an argument that they are more complicated in some senses.

I am a Back Plate guy, but I have to agree with the PAID Buyers Guide. It is all in how you are calling it "simple."

Take someone who has no experience with diving, give them these two pieces of equipment and tell them to put them on with no instructions. They will be able to put on and adjust the jacket style BC much more quickly than the Backplate and Wing.

I dive a BP/Wing and I have grown to love it. It takes less space in the luggage and is the most simple and basic set up you can have. BUT ... there was a learning curve to it.

1. After being converted to the dark side by the BP Wing lobby on scubaboard, I purchased the a BP wing and realized that flotation experience at the surface was totally different. A fully inflated wing kept pushing my face closer to water surface. If I was given my very first scuba lesson in that set up, I would have a hard time even listening to the instruction. Then I started to roll over and lay flat on my back at the surface while looking at the sky. It became fun from there on!

2. BCD comes with all the contraptions needed to secure dangling items like octo, computer and inflator hose etc. My wing had nothing! Every time I dived, the inflator hose was dangling behind my back and I had to reach behind to grab a hold of it. There was nothing in the harness that would secure the hose up front. I was shown much later that you have to buy a clip and then clip the d ring in the front.

3. When the inflator hose was clipped to the d ring in the front there was once when I was unable to unclip it during a cold water dive because of 5 mm gloves. The clip button would not press because the damn gloved were so thick! I had to remove my gloves to unclip the hose from the d-ring. Finally I got rid of press-release clips and started using elastic cord to connect the inflator hose to the d ring.

4. I wanted to change the harness webbing and took my wing to LDS. I asked them if they could put a new webbing into the BP/Wing. The guy who worked there for years said he could never rig a BP wing! He said I can sell you the webbing but you would have to go on youtube and look at the videos. After many attempts you will be able to get the d rings where you would actually want them. This guy was a dive professional and he was telling me he could not put the basic webbing into a back plate. I told him I don't have time for you tube and all that and I have a dive the next morning. He then called a scuba instructor in his shop who was also a tech diver. She fitted the webbing but did it wrong!

5. Next day when I was doing my drysuit checkout dives, the webbing had to be re-adjusted. This caused the d rings to move an inch from where they were before. Not a big issue but gave additional things to fiddle around with moments before an instructional dive.

After all this hassle, I have figured out my set up and am comfortable with it. It enables me to sink with less lead, results in better trim and does not cause the tank to ride up. It gives awesome tank stability and above all, it is smaller and easy to transport to places. I dont think I would go back to a jacket. Yet there was a learning / adjusting curve to it.

What may look "simple" in a picture may not be "simple to dive with" the first time.

Cheers -

Sinbad

I wanted pockets, I wanted more D-rings, I wanted retractors and plenty of other things. I had no idea you could customize one to your liking or that you could add to it and what not.
No one ever told me. And I'm pretty sure if someone did, it would be too daunting to take to it all on by myself.

And I will say that a BP/W rig is a little more difficult to set up. I just had a friend who purchased one and had no idea how to even get the straps set right. So it is more difficult to start then say a jacket which is ready to go straight out of the plastic wrap.
My friend had to be told where the straps went, how tight they should be, where the plate should sit, how to set up a crotch strap, how to adjust the straps once you finally tested it in the ocean etc etc.
And that was just a simply HOG harness.

Now don't get me wrong, the very next big purchase I make IS going to be a BP/W.
And if anyone ever asks me which BC to get, I'll tell them BP/W, because down the road you're going wish you had one. And I'll gladly point them to my nearest friend who dives one so they can get all the info they need.

But in general unless you have someone to show you the ropes on using a BP/W effectively, then I'd say it's too much to handle for a new diver.

Jacket BC's are simplistic in that you can only customize it in set configurations.
Where as BP/W's are a lot more customizable, there's a lot more things you have to worry about on top of just diving.

Okay, so I don't float around on the surface with my face in the water either, so I'll concede that it may be a training issue.

What I mean is that a jacket user can just inflate his BC at the surface with any random amount of air he wishes and float like he's wearing a Type I PFD whereas a BP/W wearer needs to be more precise with inflation so he doesn't overinflate and end up being pushed forward. So, yeah, training. There is a steeper learning curve with BP/W.

I'm just a happy BP/W user trying to be fair here. Mac users admit they wish certain apps were available to them; nobody that owns the Elise with the crank-down windows really appreciates two less failure points; and nothing floats you face-up in the water better than a jacket BC.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Here are what I found for posts from BP/W BC Proponents who seem to be stating as a fact that BP/W's are more streamlined than vests, even though there is no data on even the best streamlined vests vs the best streamlined BP/W's, much less all BP/W's vs all vests.

I'm not going to say that a BP/W is the only choice - it's not. I have no problem with divers in whatever BC makes them feel good, so long as they're in control.

That said, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the BP/W should be dismissed out of hand as an option for a new diver. Here's what I left as a comment on their site. Their page seems to mangle comments such as to remove any well-intentioned formatting, so here it is as I originally typed it.

"That slick tec back plate looks ultracool, but it’s not a great choice for a new diver. It’s best to keep your kit simple and suitable for your abilities, then upgrade as your skills and capabilities increase."

This makes no sense to me. As a PADI professional and a firm believer in keeping my kit as simple and streamlined as possible, I have ultimately settled on a backplate and wing style device, with a single-piece harness.

This has a number of advantages for the new diver, and should absolutely not be dismissed out of hand.

* It is streamlined.
* It encourages a horizontal posture.
* It allows for a 100% custom fit for every diver.
* It provides a degree of choice in BC features that simple cannot be matched by "conventional" manufactured BCs. Individual divers may choose to add/remove integrated weight pockets, add/remove padding, choose D-ring placement, purchase only a lighter plate for travel, place more weight over the lungs by using a heavier plate, etc.
* It does not require the use of a chest strap, which can provide significantly enhanced fit and comfort for women, and eliminates drysuit inflation valve overlaps.
* It is easy to replace component-by-component as time passes, as compared to a "conventional" BC.
* It is often a less expensive option.
* It provides a platform that can grow with the diver, wherever their diving interests may go in the future.

I am a Back Plate guy, but I have to agree with the PAID Buyers Guide. It is all in how you are calling it "simple."

Take someone who has no experience with diving, give them these two pieces of equipment and tell them to put them on with no instructions. They will be able to put on and adjust the jacket style BC much more quickly than the Backplate and Wing.

Now, if by simple you mean (and Doc Harry you probably do) more streamlined, simpler construction, minimalist, fewer failure points, etc. Then of course the BP/W wins hands down.

Remember the audience of the PADI Divers Guide.

i bought my bp/w after about 25 dives. i had always rented a bc. i also hated the bc so when donning the bp/w I felt like I was in heaven...

it was streamlined, and simple w/o tons of stupid straps hanging everywhere! It's also easier to travel with.

 

[BDSC]

People who pontificate about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the [-]BP/W[/-] jacket BC system to every day recreational diving just are either ignorant or have some other agenda or some combination thereof. YMMV

I'd say that works pretty much both ways.

 

[dmoore19]

snip

Incidentally, in my opinion, dive computers are another area where a little bit of thought and reasoning can save a diver a bundle of money. It always blows my mind when I hear that people spend over $500 on a computer.

I am not blown away by this. I know you can spend less than $500. I like toys and just got an Oceanic Datamask. I will get to play with it in Cozumel in March. I am not saying that I need a datamask, does anybody? I tried one out in the pool at my LDS and really liked it. Again, I like toys and the datamask seemed to do everything I wanted and more, is easy for my tired old eyes to read and lets me free up both arms and hands to manage other things as required. Sometimes it's not all about money, though I hate being screwed, I got a good deal with a little bit of trading and haggeling, and am sure I will be happy with my purchase.