Jacket BCD vs. Backplate/Wing

[MauiScubaSteve]

This Thread is so much fun to read.

My Instructor is one of the "pros" mentioned in another post and he is a damn good instructor, very through and very patient. He works with kids in in try scuba and JR certs. He is a big Zeagel,Atomic,Bare guy and loves his jacket back inflate BC.

.....

It is up to new divers to do the research and ask questions about gear purchases before pulling the trigger. Get second and third opinions, ask on SB. If they dont they fall victim to dive shop hustle and bogas sales pitches.

Just like manufacturers now call alternate second stages octo's, there are probably manufacturers that now call their vest BC's jacket's.

All my jackets have sleeves.

The terminology history I was taught is that when the alternate second stage first became popular with divers, the extra hose led to many divers saying the entire reg set looks like an octopus.

There are hybrid BC's with bladders that are both around the body and "wing out" in the back, but from looking at the Zeagle web site all their BC's seem to be back inflates (BI).

Often, new divers need to be careful which "research" influences their knowledge. Only the person typing is in control of the accuracy of their typing, and continuing the ignorant web information exchange seems to be accelerating societies ignorance.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

Just like manufacturers now call alternate second stages octo's, there are probably manufacturers that now call their vest BC's jacket's.

All my jackets have sleeves.

The terminology history I was taught is that when the alternate second stage first became popular with divers, the extra hose led to many divers saying the entire reg set looks like an octopus.

There are hybrid BC's with bladders that are both around the body and "wing out" in the back, but from looking at the Zeagle web site all their BC's seem to be back inflates (BI).

Often, new divers need to be careful which "research" influences their knowledge. Only the person typing is in control of the accuracy of their typing, and continuing the ignorant web information exchange seems to be accelerating societies ignorance.

O MAN I am so glad your back. Gosh it is no fun on here with out you..... I keep forgetting to run all my posts by you 1st for screening but one day I'll remember.

 

[BDSC]

Should I mention how so many students get supremely confused when trying to figure out all the doodads on a jacket BC? Weight pockets get jammed in wrong. Straps get unclipped. All sorts of stuff. One of the high end rental BC's, a nice Scubapro, used a cumberbund AND a belt clip thing, that confused students very reliably.

This is another one of those statements that makes me smile. Do students really get "supremely confused"? Honestly? Are the weight pouches that hard to figure out? Almost everyone I have even seen has some sort of velcro or clip on one end. So if you slide that end in first any student will quickly see that the clip/velcro end needs to be on the outer edge to fasten to it's counterpart. Has that experience just thrown them for a loop? My Scubapro also has a cumberbund and a clip. Hmmmm....let me think a minute. The cumberbund is under the clip. Hmmmmm......which do I fasten first? Well, when I put on a pair of shorts with a belt, what do I do? I button the pair of shorts first and then the belt which is over the button on the shorts. Soooooooo......if a student puts on a bc that has both a cumberbund and a clip, have you honestly had many students that were very confused about what to do? Could they really not figure out to use the velcro cumberbund first and then the simple clip that is on top second.

I gotta tell ya, if you really truly have students that get "supremely confused", and I guess that means they have absolutely no idea what to do once the jacket bc is on their shoulders, you guys need to do some serious evaluation of those students and decide if they are even capable of learning how to dive.

 

[BoltSnap]

hmm...Have you ever looked at the Dive Rite Nomad? It seems to be just as safe and durable (I've taken mine on quite a few no mount dives. Not much is more punishing to a BC than that sort of diving. I think it's also user repairable while the Classic is not, or is less so, due to the inner bladder being completely removable from the system. Can you do this on the Classic?) and is considerably more versatile. I can use a Nomad with one tank, two tanks, doubles with as many stages as I can float with its massive lift and my drysuit, or even with no tanks. I can use those tanks on my back or on my side.

I don’t know if the Classic is repairable or not, I NEVER had to know if it is since it never had a problem with punctures in my 15 years or so of using it. Never had any of my customers complain about it or had a problem with it in terms of bladder durability. The only problem I remember was when we had to replace a dump valve for a customer and that was done under warranty by SP (customer attempted to lift the whole bc, tank and regulator setup by that little string).

I never used or had to use the Classic BC with doubles. I didn’t buy it for that purpose but it would probably support doubles since it has the required lift. Again, this doesn’t matter to me. One tank is plenty for me for the type of diving I do (interesting to note that guys with doubles still run low on air before I do and come up on the boat before me. Perhaps if they dive with less clutter and less tanks they would be huffing and puffing less).

Why is it that the SP Classic is the most versatile again?

Because it serves my purpose and I use it in all types of diving I do. Warm water, cold water, thin or no wet suit, thick, semi dry, D’rings for every purpose, VERY stable tank, use it in Boston, Curacao, Libya, Egypt, etc. It floats me up sideways, laying on my back with absolutely NO effort to do so at all!! Again it serves MY purpose. I am still open minded to consider another type of BC if and when my circumstances require it.

I'm biased here too. I've used a Scubapro Classic. It fit me great...until I inflated it. And then I adjusted it, and it fit me great, until I deflated it. See a pattern? Additionally, it let the tank hit my head and the whole rig failed to follow my body as I moved like a backplate and wing.

Are you sure you were using the SP Classic?? I never heard this complaint before about the classic. If it fits, it fits, nothing in between. If the tank hits you in the head, then you didn’t adjust the BC properly.

BTW, if you are happy with your BP/W, great and more power to you. I don’t know why you folks need to get our approval and agreement for your equipment choices. Again, it seems that you need and insist that everyone accepts and cheer your equipment choices just so you feel good about it. If one disagrees, you are ready to call him stupid, ignorant, etc. etc. Why?

One critical point, with the classic you can float up on the surface with the BC inflated at ANY attitude including literally laying on your back without ANY effort at all. I can use it as a raft or resting station and not have to fight or even move my legs or hands and never get tired to maintain any position including laying on my back waiting for the boat to pick me up if I am down current from the boat. An unconscious diver will stay in “on-back” position on the surface no problem.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Once they see it done or take a minute to think about it, rather than just grabbing and trying without giving it any serious thought, most students can figure it out. However, they aren't always immediately clear, and certainly not as simple as the one-buckle-only backplate and wing.

How can you argue that a BC is easier when it has TWO things to fasten on the waist and a BP/W only has one? Only applicable to certain BC's, but it still is a valid point, no?

Glad I could make you smile though.

 

[BDSC]

How can you argue that a BC is easier when it has TWO things to fasten on the waist and a BP/W only has one? Only applicable to certain BC's, but it still is a valid point, no?

Glad I could make you smile though.

Hey, no argument from me brother. I think if anyone can learn to scuba dive, they can learn to put on either a BP/W, a jacket bc, or a BI bc equally well. None of it looks very complicated to me. I just can't imagine any of them being all that hard to figure out and confusing anyone with even a limited amount of intelligence.

 

[seaducer]

Wow, and now you are saying that every diver will, inevitably, need to be using a BP/W and it is "idiotic" not to buy one from the beginning. How presumptuous.

Nobody has said that. Nobody who has promoted bp/w setups have ever said that people who dive jackets are not good divers, nor has anyone said that people who dive bp/w are superior divers in any way. Perhaps you feel that way, but that is your own issue, nobody here is implying any such thing.

What we ARE saying is that the common myths regarding bp/w, such as they are super complicated and only suitable for advanced divers is so much bs. The fact is they are simple enough to use that even raw ow students would feel comfortable in them. Pointing out some rather complicated jacket bc rigs does nothing but illustrate that point.

For me, I have significant experience in many different jacket bc models. None fit as well, are more comfortable or more stable in any position than my bp/w is. None are as "simple" as the bp/w is. And at $280 from a LDS all are more money by at least a c note than my bp/w.

Does all that make me a better diver, or a wanna be, or presumptuous? No, it is simply a gear choice I made and what I have learned about that gear after the sale. I am sorry if people who post opinions contrary to yours offends or threatens you in some way, but if you would just tone down the drama a little you might find we are just a bunch of divers who like our gear, and want to talk about it. We don't need to be attacked or put down for dispelling myths either. Dive how you like, allow others to do the same, and let the information out there so that everyone can make an informed decision on their own.

 

[BoltSnap]

seaducer,

Drama, me?? I think that you are seeing it the way you want to see it. Read the thread the thread again if you wish please. In almost every post, I say that I like my BC choice for me but everyone else is entitled to their choice but again, BP/W zealots have to nit pick and just can't resist to find fault about everything to make their point. I don't recall or see that I attacked the choice of BP/W or their validity to be used in diving. If you look at the OP, it was presented from the beginning to illustrate that the BP/W is superior to JBCD, the JBCD is "complicated" and that the choice is "obvious."

Again, everyone is entitled to use the equipment they feel that it would meet their needs, just don't call folks who teach/sell the equipment they believe in idiots or ignorant or, even worse, crooks that are trying to fleece the public using a hidden agenda or tactics to make people spend money twice (if you bother to read the entire thread, you will see that said very clearly).

BTW, it would take a longer time to get the BP/W rig all setup with ALL of the required accessories and to train the newbies to use it correctly. A Jacket BC is just that, a jacket that most folks in the civilized world are accustomed to wearing and familiar with. As was illustrated in a prior post, any person with reasonable intelligence can immediately figure out how to put it on and tie the cummerbund and the waist strap (this is in fact what I do in every entry level class when they use the BC for the first time. I never had a student fail to figure out how to put it on or how to secure the cummerbund or belt). On the other hand, if you need to get a BP/W fully setup and adjusted to fit a diver properly, you'll need to spend more time with them and it wouldn't be as intuitive as many claim it to be. BUT, this is no problem IMO. It doesn't take away from the value of the BP/W at all. If the conditions or circumstance of the local diving requires using BP/W, no problem.

 

[Peter Guy]

[Confession #1 -- I am a BP/W person, teach in it (when permitted) and encourage OW students to use one and I HATE, HATE, HATE jacket BCs -- always have]
[Confession #2 -- I haven't read every word of the prior posts so if someone has written what I'm about to write, please forgive me]

Myth #1 -- Jacket BCs don't require training for a beginner to setup. Well, they do if:

a. They are the wrong size (and except by working with a knowledgable person, how is the beginner supposed to know the "right" size?); or

b. They have non-standard fittings (and except by working with a knowledgable person, how is the beginner supposed to know the fittings are the "right" ones or that "this lever" does something?); or

c. The cambands aren't threaded properly (and except by working with a knowledgable person, how is the beginner supposed to know they are threaded properly?); or...or....

In other words, if someone just buys a Jacket BC online or 2nd hand (or at a "discount LDS" [or is that a contradiction in terms?]), they can be in for a very difficult fitting. The only safe way for a student to have a good, comfortable fit in a Jacket BC is to have a knowledgable person help them set everything up correctly.

Hmmm -- that seems to be what I hear people saying about BP/Ws?

Myth 2 -- A "traditional" BC is always easier to setup than a BP/W. That too is a -- Well it depends! I was working with a student a while ago who had purchased a very expensive BC (contrary to my advice) and we eventually spent over an hour with the LDS owner pulling/tugging/strapping every which way because this particular "traditional BC" had adjustments EVERYWHERE. And no, it never did hold the tank stable on her whereas just putting her into my wife's BP/W (no adjustment other than putting on the waist belt until it was tight0showed her she really COULD have a stable platform.
This particular BC was so complicated it convinced me NEVER to have a student work with one.

Myth #3 -- You can't buy a BP/W except in pieces over the internet so you'll never have a knowledgable salesperson available to assist you in making the right choices and in understanding how the gear works. Gee, just go to a dive shop that sells the gear!!!

It is true that few places have BP/Ws available for rent -- but that doesn't mean no place has them nor that more places will have them. From what I hear, the Halcyon Cinch System makes a great rental setup because:

a. One size fits just about everyone;
b. It is very easy to adjust and fit; and
c. It is bullet proof and simple.

People who pontificate about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving just are either ignorant or have some other agenda or some combination thereof. YMMV

 

[BoltSnap]

Peter Guy,

I think that you are confusing saying "putting it on" with "using it." They are totally two different things IMO.

Where did you see in this thread that somebody say:

People who pontificate about the complexity and ill-suitedness of the BP/W system to every day recreational diving just are either ignorant or have some other agenda or some combination thereof.

What "hidden" agenda do you think they will have? Overthrow the US government or the collapse of the international financial system? Could it be that they succeeded and had Mubarak leave the Egyptian Government?


OK, all of you BP/W basher/haters let's gather around and huddle to discuss our next strategy move. These BP/W folks have finally figured us out and our plans are now exposed. We are busted. We need to figure out new tactics and new agenda.

Hey that includes you all even the lurkers!!