When thirds are not enough....

[DA Aquamaster]

Seems to me that one of the requisite skills for diving in any kind of overhead environment is the ability to realistically assess whether or not the dive plan is a reasonable idea in the first place.

I have a great management/executive function/decision making research article buried somewhere in the pile of crap in my office that addresses exactly that issue.

To grossly paraphrase the conclusion of the researchers: The people who most need to realistically assess their own abilities are the same people who suck at doing exactly that.

So...the poor judgment and bad decisons that come from not having that skill results in those individuals putting themselves in situations that require that skill.

Those same poor self assessment skills and resulting poor decision making processes translate to cave diving as well.

Ideally instructors would identify those folks and direct them somewhere else to some other (safer) hobby. Unfortunately I suspect that some (a small but significant percentage) of those people are instructors and those types of instructors then tend to promote more of their own as they do not recognize the flaw in themselves or in others.

Alternatively, other instructors probably feel that decision making will improve with experience. in mnay cases that is correct as failure is a power teacher, but in that subset of individuals who don't make accurate self assessments, it does not improve as they are not able to properly assess their failures or weaknessed or apply them to an accurate assessment of their abilities.

It's a great construct and should be part of any cave or tech instructor development program.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

DA I think you make a good point but isee it a lot simpler than that. No instructor I have ever seen teaches complacency. That's what gets people in trouble and leads them to bad decisions. I have heard it too many times, its just JB. People underestimate the relative ease of these caves, especially when they do them twice a year and I suspect the rest of the tourist caves as well. I have seen this same attitude in newer cave divers as well that dive them regularly.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

DA I think you make a good point but isee it a lot simpler than that. No instructor I have ever seen teaches complacency. That's what gets people in trouble and leads them to bad decisions. I have heard it too many times, its just JB. People underestimate the relative ease of these caves, especially when they do them twice a year and I suspect the rest of the tourist caves as well. I have seen this same attitude in newer cave divers as well that dive them regularly.

I'll disagree with the second sentence. There's an instructor right here on ScubaBoard who actively promotes the notion that there's nothing wrong with doing overheads straight out of OW class. The whole "diving is easy" mentality is the very definition of complacency. And what gets taught at the OW level tends to translate into higher levels of learning.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I'll disagree with the second sentence. There's an instructor right here on ScubaBoard who actively promotes the notion that there's nothing wrong with doing overheads straight out of OW class. The whole "diving is easy" mentality is the very definition of complacency. And what gets taught at the OW level tends to translate into higher levels of learning.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are right, those instructors who do this are a problem. However I was speaking of cave instructors, I see nothing wrong with someone going right into cavern training and learning things right from the start. If they have a reckless attitude about it then the instructor needs to fail them. I dive with one buddy who went straight to cavern and now has well over 100 at full cave level and I trust him completely. In my opinion its easier to get good habits from the start then tocorrect bad habits down the road. I don't now or will ever agree with the mentality of I have full cave now let's double stage and see how far we can get. We still see too many doing that versus learning how to do that safely.

 

[Cave Diver]

You are right, those instructors who do this are a problem. However I was speaking of cave instructors, I see nothing wrong with someone going right into cavern training and learning things right from the start. If they have a reckless attitude about it then the instructor needs to fail them.

Unfortunately, we've seen enough posts right here on this board to know that there are some cave instructors who are complacent as well. I think it's something that likely exists at all levels of training.

 

[rjack321]

Could you guys please start a new thread on the disadvantages of SM. I am not trolling here, just curious.

There's no need for a new thread. The disadvantage of side-mount is simple. Its the hottest new thang which when embraced by an overconfident noob makes them feel invincible.

Same phenomenon happens with CCRs and to some extent backmount doubles, although doubles are rather blah in 2011 and don't fire up the ignorant's imagination to go further and deeper quite like sidemount or a new CCR.

The problem with new toys is they let people imagine where they are going to go(get). They rarely make much of a plan on how to get home from that point. As this thread illustrates, the "rule of 1/3rds" is the most simplistic and rudimentary get home plan of all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There's no need for a new thread. The disadvantage of side-mount is simple. Its the hottest new thang which when embraced by an overconfident noob makes them feel invincible.

That's not a disadvantage of sidemount ... it's a disadvantage of overconfidence. That logic is no different than saying that the disadvantage to owning a gun is that some people will use them to commit a crime.

Just as you shouldn't try to use equipment to solve a skills problem, you also shouldn't blame equipment for the fact that some will choose to use it irresponsibly.

... Bob

 

[DA Aquamaster]

That's not a disadvantage of sidemount ... it's a disadvantage of overconfidence. That logic is no different than saying that the disadvantage to owning a gun is that some people will use them to commit a crime.

Just as you shouldn't try to use equipment to solve a skills problem, you also shouldn't blame equipment for the fact that some will choose to use it irresponsibly.

... Bob

I agree. the cave diving equivalent of "Sidemount doesn't kill people, people kill people."

 

[Lobzilla]

Not necessarily. I went to CCR because we were getting to the point that some of our OC dives were getting longer and deeper and it was starting to get logistically prohibitive for us to bring all the gas we needed to safely do a dive.

When we switched to CCR I didn't suddenly think that I could magically go to the end of the line in a cave system on my next dive. In fact, I've been further in several caves on OC than I have on CCR. That's because I realize there is a learning curve and just because I have the equipment to get me somewhere doesn't mean I have the skill to get me out.

It doesn't take bad judgment to gain experience. Sometimes good ole' fashioned common sense will suffice.

While abstract reasoning is helpfull and necessary it is not enough. Let me make an example:

I certaily have enough brain cells to figure out that drysuit diving is easier with an inflator hose somewhere on my rig. Yet, the other day I found myself on a boat without that hose. Why? Because I had previously dived wet and my procedures were insufficiently robust to deal with the change back to dry. The tanks were filled, gas analyzed, battery pack charged, etc. Everything was checked and there - except the hose.

To some people, an event like this is a minor inconvenience to others a serious wake-up call.

Your 'breather (and any other thing including "thirds") will become your enemy when you think the learning curve has ended and you have acquired 'common sense'.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Agreed. I'm seeing people with less than 50 cave dives beyond full cave making posts about messing around in silty SM tunnels.

It's pretty stupid/scary.

I'm seeing people at the Intro cave level post about diving SM passages. That's scary!

I can personally say that my first experience with ceiling peculation was a bit freaky for me, and I didn't expect it. I really don't think people realize what they're getting themselves into when it comes to silt outs.

It was the same way for me. That's why my students all experience true reduced visibility in cavern class and true zero visibility in full cave.

Soooo many people are saying stuff about how great SM is... How you "can't" lose all your gas, how clean it is blah blah. Heck even PADI and DAN have jumped on the SM bandwagon. Nobody talks about the negatives and thus those divers who have a propensity towards "too much too soon" don't have or see many brake pedals.

Would they have gotten into the same trouble in BM? Possibly. Or the cave may have turned them around sooner. Too many variable to know for sure, but SM (and the scooters) gave them a certain amount of confidence which was misplaced.

The references to how great SM is are to OW SM, not diving SM passage. Unfortunately, there are also lots of people out there saying taking a SM class isn't necessary. One thing that I do with all my cave trained SM students that take the basic SM course is take them through smaller passage to give them an idea of what it's really like. In my cave SM course my students have to negotiate true restrictions in a blacked out mask.

I think these guys would have gotten into similar trouble in BM. The issue wasn't SM, it was the entire plan (or lack of a plan).

The last sentence is perfect. Making someone with a huge ego understand it is going to be impossible tho.

Send someone with full cave training and a huge ego who wants to dive SM and I'm pretty sure I can make them understand it.

These guys have years of diving, if they dont have good judgement by now, they never will. Learning in caves is just like learning at 300ft, you can only absorb so much, you have to learn the rest while doing it. In my opinion, listening to that little voice on your shoulder will kepp most divers from really doing something stupid.

I don't think it was ego that got these guys in trouble. It was lack of knowledge and lack of planning.