Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[Doriadiver11]

GOOD LORD, PEOPLE! PEOPLE CAN DIE DOING THIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! ................
I know one thing for dang sure. We ought to all get together and fix training prices. I mean, it's not like scuba diving is a choice people make. It's like insurance and Bose radios, isn't it? Everybody has to do it. Right?

‘Price Fixing’ would be the case if retail dive shops or instructors themselves, and located within a particular geographic market; were to agree upon a minimum price offered for training at the end-user level. This is an illegal practice in the United States, and is not at all what I suggested in my comment.

What I referred to was for the training agencies, to require that retailers and instructors adhere to a ‘MSRP’ minimum suggested retail pricing standard and that this be a condition of retaining their ‘dealership’ status. This is quite another thing, and is a perfectly LEGAL practice which provides for the protection of brand-value. Before you start shooting your big mouth off to criticize, you best know what you’re talking about.

And in fact.......people can and do get seriously injured, lost at sea, or dead..... doing this sport. If think otherwise, then please stay in your quarry with the other wannabees and don't get on my boat. I suggest you spend some time reading the DAN incident reports and statistics on diving injuries and deaths.

Furthermore, the insidious reason that the for-profit training agencies have NOT used a logical pricing stanard of practice (such as setting an MSRP for example); in an effort to protect the economic model of the industry; is because the FOR-PROFIT training agencies such as PADI (NAUI for example is NOT-FOR-PROFIT status), have since their inception; made their money NOT from providing training materials, value-added products, nor even from protecting their brand value (it’s quite the opposite in fact); but have instead made their money by perpetrating a fraudulent liability insurance scheme.

Particularly PADI, has been known for years, to have made huge commissions (kick-backs), on the over-inflated liability insurance policies sold to instructors and retail dive shops. For that reason, they have been financially incentivized to PUMP OUT as many instructor certifications as possible, to as many people as possible in order to maximize their take from insurance premiums paid annually by instructors. The agency makes far more money on this, than they do on the meager numbers of non-leadership certification fees that they are paid annually. It has become nothing more than a pyramid scheme.

In fact, they crank out so many instructors (a great many with less than a year of diving experience, and just 100 or so dives to their credit); that they have effectively flooded the market with far too many instructors than the actual market for non-leadership training can support (again; the purpose for which is to certify as many instructors as they can, to whom they can act as the exclusive broker in selling another company’s liability insurance policy, whose exclusivity is a condition of status with PADI). PADI is in fact currently the defendant in a huge lawsuit against them, for their involvement in exactly this fraudulent and illegal practice.

What is clear, if one takes a look at the industry statistics; is that PADI for example, issues a total number of non-leadership certification cards annually; that equals fewer than 9 certifications for every ACTIVE PADI instructor certified. I can’t speak for others, but trying to justify investing in an annual liability insurance policy and membership dues (together costing just about $1000 annually), in addition to equipment investment for one's self and one's students, as well as accepting the significant financial and safety risk to teach just 9 students per year at less than $200 each is not something that anyone in their right mind should sign up for.

Comment all you like, but I stand behind every word of my previous post, and your comparison to “price-fixing” only reveals your own ignorance. The training agencies have been ripping off the instructing and retail dive shop community for decades; both directly and indirectly; first by taking kick-backs from the insurance companies for whom they act as exclusive broker along with access-exclusivity agreements ( so that you cannot teach unless you buy exclusively THEIR insurance, and theirs only ); and secondly; by making the requirements, standards, and cost of initially becoming a certified instructor ridiculously cheap and easy; and thereby creating practically NO barrier to entry for that level of so-called ‘leadership’ training. They’ve further destroyed any standard of practical value that can be offered by what should have been REAL professional instructors; by flooding the market with cheap, easy, low-standard training products for non-leadership level training, like on-line courses.

In the process, PADI has led the charge to completely diminish the real value that should be part of any SCUBA training, and has forced ALL training agencies, even those that held some vestige of honor and integrity by remaining NOT-FOR-PROFIT (such as NAUI), to follow suit and diminish their own standards to PADI’s level, just to remain in existence.

It is THAT dynamic which is a shameful aspect of the recreational SCUBA industry. And as for the children.... you G***damn right, I will protect them from the stupidity of pinheads like you; with every fiber of my being.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

This would be true if all agencies were following that lead. They are not. SEI and CMAS certainly don't. I can't speak for others but as I do teach both I know what we are doing and if anything we are increasing the amount of skill and knowledge a diver needs to have. My own students are taught above agency standards as high as they are. There are requirements I set that they must meet. I don't want any agency telling me what I should charge. In fact no shop should tell an instructor what they should make. That should be up to the instructor. I don't teach for a shop and if I can help it never will. I work with one but there is a difference. I also now sell equipment. The mfg tells me what I can advertise it for but not what the final price should be. I can sell it for whatever I want.

I do agree that there are too many poorly trained divers and instructors. But that is not just the fault of the agencies. Consumers put more thought into choosing a TV than they do a scuba class. That is the fault of the agencies and the instructors themselves. They will not tell people that you can die doing this in some very nasty ways. I have no qualms telling anyone that. And just did so last weekend in a presentation at a dive show. Afterwords I had a woman tell me that I upset her by making her realize that after OW, AOW, Nitrox, and Rescue that she didn't know as much as she should and that she felt she should take a class from me! The topic -Diver Responsibility.

Another trait that fails to be conveyed to the new diver. The DM is not supposed to keep you safe. A bad one may even put you in a situation that will kill you. No one but the diver is responsible for the safety of that diver.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Furthermore, the insidious reason that the for-profit training agencies have NOT used a logical pricing stanard of practice (such as setting an MSRP for example); in an effort to protect the economic model of the industry; is because the FOR-PROFIT training agencies such as PADI (NAUI for example is NOT-FOR-PROFIT status), have since their inception; made their money NOT from providing training materials, value-added products, nor even from protecting their brand value (it’s quite the opposite in fact); but have instead made their money by perpetrating a fraudulent liability insurance scheme.

Particularly PADI, has been known for years, to have made huge commissions (kick-backs), on the over-inflated liability insurance policies sold to instructors and retail dive shops. For that reason, they have been financially incentivized to PUMP OUT as many instructor certifications as possible, to as many people as possible in order to maximize their take from insurance premiums paid annually by instructors. The agency makes far more money on this, than they do on the meager numbers of non-leadership certification fees that they are paid annually. It has become nothing more than a pyramid scheme.

In fact, they crank out so many instructors (a great many with less than a year of diving experience, and just 100 or so dives to their credit); that they have effectively flooded the market with far too many instructors than the actual market for non-leadership training can support (again; the purpose for which is to certify as many instructors as they can, to whom they can act as the exclusive broker in selling another company’s liability insurance policy, whose exclusivity is a condition of status with PADI). PADI is in fact currently the defendant in a huge lawsuit against them, for their involvement in exactly this fraudulent and illegal practice.

Does PADI require specific (V&B?) insurance in order for a dive operator to have PADI 5-Star status? I realize this might be different from region to region, so please indicate which PADI any of you have up to date info with regards to store liability dive insurance requirements in order to be a PADI 5-Star operator.

I am pretty sure that a North American PADI dive instructor only has to be "insured" by one of at least 3 different dive pro insurers, because I have only had less than a year of V&B insurance vs ~8 years on various policies through at least 2 insurers other than V&B. By the way, that partial year from V&B, right after becoming an instructor, was reasonably priced! :shocked2:

I personally consider PADI to be more of a publisher than anything else; if the packaging was greener I might even consider them a darn good publisher.

 

[Doriadiver11]

and therefore you wont be compensated as if it were...

$625 for OW Basic? that woulda kept me outta the sport... thats alot of money to me for an entry-level scuba class.

Keep OW costs down as not to scare people off.... there's Plenty of money to spend on additional training and gear later.

A quality regulator costs around $600. A quality BCD also costs around $500. Even just a quality set of mask, snorkel and fins costs around $200, a dive trip to the Bahamas for a week costs thousands of dollars. So you think that quality training from a seasoned and experienced professional instructor, that will train you with skills and knowledge that will outlast your gear by decades; should cost next to nothing?

Your attitude is exactly the problem in the industry. People have been indoctrinated with an expectation, that quality training is of little value, superfluous, and that they should be entitled to it for free.

If a quality scuba certification course costing $600 would have ‘priced you out of the sport’, then how did you have an expectation to afford thousands of dollars for quality equipment and many more thousands in addition to take just one trip to a decent location to dive? If you’re not willing to pay a dive professional what they’re worth for quality training to gain knowledge and skills that will keep you alive while conducting a high-risk activity, or to learn to survive in the event of some unexpected adverse situation while in an underwater environment that can drown you in a matter of seconds; then I suggest you explore golf, or tennis, and see what a golf-pro or tennis-pro is paid. It’s an obscenity, that REAL instructors have been getting screwed so badly for so many years as compared to other recreational sports. “Pricing people” who have your attitude “out of the sport”, is exactly what SHOULD happen.

 

[Doriadiver11]

I don't want any agency telling me what I should charge. .

All due respect;

Setting an MSRP isn't exactly a training agency telling you what you can charge (it is kind of....but not entirely).......it's establishing a minimum retail price for training, in accordance with the actual cost to provide it. You can always charge more than that, you just can't charge less and offer that brand of training. The analogy in the outdoor product world is Patagonia sportswear, versus Columbia. You buy Columbia discounted heavily from any mail-order house, while Patagonia is ONLY available from their authorized dealers, who are not allowed to discount their products more than a certain percentage below MSRP, or they lose their dealership authorization.

Therefore, you won't find Patagonia selling through mail-order, or at Wal-Mart. The problem in dive training as I see it, is that there is no brand-value protection of that kind; so EVERY training agency has played "follow-the-leader' ever farther down the abyss of value destruction, because they have no other choice, particularly in this economy. Perhaps the idea that training agencies setting an MSRP for courses isn't the BEST idea; but it's a heck of a lot better than what we have now. If you have a better idea; please put it on the table, because what this industry needs, is a complete overhaul of the financial model; and regardless of whether my earlier posts are popular or not; unless someone states the unvarnished truth and gets the diaglogue started....nothing will change.

You folks may not like that I wrote the truth here, but at least someone has the guts to put it out there and get you to start thinking.

Readers on this thread are perfectly free to disagree, but no one who has been instructing as long as I have (since 1980) can deny the fundamental assertion that the industry model is flawed, and has been for decades. Compare it with sky-diving training, golf instructing, tennis, and a whole cadre of other recreational activities, and tell me again that dive instruction is not saddled with a completely dysfunctional business model.

I too am a CMAS instructor since 1980 (as well as NAUI, PADI, TDI, IANTD); and as you must know; CMAS and NAUI both have the distinction of allowing instructors the flexibility to determine the content of their course offerings as long as they meet a minimum set of standards. We are always free to exceed those standards (as I always have, and evidently you as well). Not so with PADI. Part of my point, is that as time has marched on over the past few decades, being able to conduct courses that exceed those standards has become increasingly difficult, as the economic investment in time, equipment, materials, assumption of risk, and opportunity cost that the instructor must make in order to do so has become onerous, since the "market price" of training has been beaten down to next to nothing year, after year, after year.

In fact; a reason I quit teaching PADI courses more than 10 years ago, was that PADI's course standards must be adhered to rigidly with no flexibility; and their standards at any given level are NOT to be exceeded. Sub-standard training at the entry level is intended to keep divers under-qualified and under-trained; so that they must continue to seek further training to keep them coming into the shop to sell them equipment, and dive trips.

Most shops I know throughout New Jersey and Eastern PA have their courses taught by independent instructors who are local to the shop, and who generally work for very little or sometimes nothing in terms of monetary compensation; but teach courses for the shop just to stay current, cover their insurance costs, and get a discount on gear. There are virtually no institutional training options any longer (such as YMCA, or university courses).

One of the least prominent shops in central NJ, which as been around since about 1998, has no less than 17 instructors "on-staff". These are local guys who teach for the shop "on-call". This shop certifies fewer than 200 students per year, or 12 students per instructor annually. In comparison, one of the MOST prominent shops has over 50 instructors at its beck and call, and most of whom work for that shop essentially for free. It is not a business model, it is a pyramid scheme. And to refer back to the point of this thread in the first place; the question was: "Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?".... I'm simply answering the question truthfully and factually from decades of experience in the industry.

Such an industry model is ridiculous. We are told all of our lives that 'you should do for a living, that which you love' in order to be happy. But the reality of life, is that if you do what you love, are paid nothing and are simply exploited for it long enough; you will eventually stop loving it, and begin hating it. It's just a matter of time. If you really LOVE diving, then just DIVE...but don't become an instructor and expect to be able to make your living it just because you "love" it.

 

[oly5050user]

Many think that being an instructor is an end all in this industry..It only is the beginning if you plan on making a full time job out of it..A instr certification can open doors into the industry. Some may start out as a local instr,then perhaps work on an island,eventually managing a dive operation there.Leave the island and work for the resort stateside as a booking agent.
Or gets contacts and works for,as an example, Nikon ,incharge of all their underwater products, in charge of the Nikon shootouts and such..That is an example of 1 instructor friend of mine.
One instructor here in NY worked for different LDS in the area and showed more inititive than the others and thereby got scheduled for more classes than the others.He eventually opened his own small LDS and discovered that he was good at managing a store. Another LDS in the area went belly up and he moved into the facility.It is now the largest in physical size in the area with a heated indoor pool. There are about 7 instructors there that teach on a continual basis.I personally teach there and usually do most of the private courses there along with the scheduled group classes and am busy doing them one right after the other. Probably work with about 75-100 students a year there myself. I have the younger instrs do many of the ow training dives as I like to spend time with the wife on the weekend on our boat.I do many,if not all,the training dives on the island trips the store runs.
Good instructors will be able to get classes and make some money at it. Other so so instructors will complain that they do not get classes/insurance is too high/blah blah blah and drop out.
Comes down to how much effort you put into the job and what you make of it.Just like anything else in life.

 

[Peter Guy]

Doriadiver -- Thank you for an interesting POV. I'm one of the many PADI instructors who does this for peanuts when I teach through my local shop. OTOH, I end up doing OK when I teach independently of my shop (although, truth be told, I still end up working for peanuts generally!).

But, you are absolutely correct when you write that:

a. The pricing model is nuts; and

b. People WILL pay a reasonable price IF it is properly "marketed" --i.e., the VALUE is created and demonstrated.

To the person who said "I wouldn't pay $625 for a class" -- well, how much did you really pay -- which is something you probably don't really know. The other day I was listening to my local shop owner tally up what ONE student actually paid for her low priced ($225) OW class -- $800+. Now maybe she wouldn't have started the process of spending that much had the class been priced at $650, but, we'll never know because the total price was, and has been, hidden.

Over the past several months I've taught several students (for peanuts -- although one family did pay for a year's worth of insurance) who "needed to learn right away" because they were going on vacation. Hmmm -- how much does THAT training cost them? Well, there is the fee, plus the airfare, plus, plus, plus -- and they would have paid any "reasonable" fee because, honestly, they were already spending fairly big $'s and the incremental increase would have been quite small -- IF PROPERLY EXPLAINED AND MARKETED.

Doriadiver asks -- Does anyone sell a basic OW class for $600? Well, right now I'm teaching a class to 7 high school kids (2 are doing AOW and 5 are doing OW), and yes, it is costing their parents more than $600 (quite a bit more) because the whole package makes the "experience" worth while. What do they get for their money? They get OW (or AOW), EAN, Dry Suit (pretty much necessary for our local waters); good basic gear (M,F,S, Gloves, Booties) which are NOT overpriced to make up for MY fee; lots of pool time (at least it seems to be sufficient); 5 days of 2 dives/day including one day off a local charter boat and I get paid for my time and effort.

As someone who owned and ran a marketing business for 20+ years, I know you can sell a product for an appropriate amount IF YOU MAKE IT WORTH that amount. Value has little relation to cost but a significant relation to want or need. IF the prospective student WANTS to learn how to Scuba Dive, they'll value the class and pay appropriately. The secret is to make sure we have enough students who WANT to learn to enjoy this wonderful sport.

 

[oly5050user]

Doriadiver -- Thank you for an interesting POV. I'm one of the many PADI instructors who does this for peanuts when I teach through my local shop. OTOH, I end up doing OK when I teach independently of my shop (although, truth be told, I still end up working for peanuts generally!).

But, you are absolutely correct when you write that:

a. The pricing model is nuts; and

b. People WILL pay a reasonable price IF it is properly "marketed" --i.e., the VALUE is created and demonstrated.

To the person who said "I wouldn't pay $625 for a class" -- well, how much did you really pay -- which is something you probably don't really know. The other day I was listening to my local shop owner tally up what ONE student actually paid for her low priced ($225) OW class -- $800+. Now maybe she wouldn't have started the process of spending that much had the class been priced at $650, but, we'll never know because the total price was, and has been, hidden.

Over the past several months I've taught several students (for peanuts -- although one family did pay for a year's worth of insurance) who "needed to learn right away" because they were going on vacation. Hmmm -- how much does THAT training cost them? Well, there is the fee, plus the airfare, plus, plus, plus -- and they would have paid any "reasonable" fee because, honestly, they were already spending fairly big $'s and the incremental increase would have been quite small -- IF PROPERLY EXPLAINED AND MARKETED.

Doriadiver asks -- Does anyone sell a basic OW class for $600? Well, right now I'm teaching a class to 7 high school kids (2 are doing AOW and 5 are doing OW), and yes, it is costing their parents more than $600 (quite a bit more) because the whole package makes the "experience" worth while. What do they get for their money? They get OW (or AOW), EAN, Dry Suit (pretty much necessary for our local waters); good basic gear (M,F,S, Gloves, Booties) which are NOT overpriced to make up for MY fee; lots of pool time (at least it seems to be sufficient); 5 days of 2 dives/day including one day off a local charter boat and I get paid for my time and effort.

As someone who owned and ran a marketing business for 20+ years, I know you can sell a product for an appropriate amount IF YOU MAKE IT WORTH that amount. Value has little relation to cost but a significant relation to want or need. IF the prospective student WANTS to learn how to Scuba Dive, they'll value the class and pay appropriately. The secret is to make sure we have enough students who WANT to learn to enjoy this wonderful sport.

As "PETER GUY" wrote many instructors charge $600.+ for a ow class.Peter,you really should charge more if you are completing all those dives and additional certications.
I charge $600. + Crewpack/DVD $95.for a private one on one class, $1000. for 2 students. Thats for academic and confined water only.OW training dives are additional.
Student must own their own personal gear of mask/snkl/fins/boot.Most also buy a 3mm wetsuit costing $200.
Money can be made,but value must be added.

 

[theduckguru]

Why can't scuba instructors make a living instructing?

A. Too many instructors, especially part time.
B. Too many dive shops.
C. Low educational requirement.
D. Small retail or travel based employers.
E. Seasonal / weekend oriented demand.
E.

 

[fjpatrum]

A quality regulator costs around $600. A quality BCD also costs around $500. Even just a quality set of mask, snorkel and fins costs around $200, a dive trip to the Bahamas for a week costs thousands of dollars. So you think that quality training from a seasoned and experienced professional instructor, that will train you with skills and knowledge that will outlast your gear by decades; should cost next to nothing?

Your attitude is exactly the problem in the industry. People have been indoctrinated with an expectation, that quality training is of little value, superfluous, and that they should be entitled to it for free.

If a quality scuba certification course costing $600 would have ‘priced you out of the sport’, then how did you have an expectation to afford thousands of dollars for quality equipment and many more thousands in addition to take just one trip to a decent location to dive? If you’re not willing to pay a dive professional what they’re worth for quality training to gain knowledge and skills that will keep you alive while conducting a high-risk activity, or to learn to survive in the event of some unexpected adverse situation while in an underwater environment that can drown you in a matter of seconds; then I suggest you explore golf, or tennis, and see what a golf-pro or tennis-pro is paid. It’s an obscenity, that REAL instructors have been getting screwed so badly for so many years as compared to other recreational sports. “Pricing people” who have your attitude “out of the sport”, is exactly what SHOULD happen.

See, that's funny. I bought my quality reg, 3 bcds, console with computer, and 3 tanks for less than $700. I then spent another $200 on getting the tanks VIP and hydro. I spent $25 total on my fins, snorkel and mask new. So far they have lasted me about 15 years snorkeling and worked fine down to 75 FSW, so I think I'm pretty safe, quality wise. So, yes, $600 would keep a lot of people out of the sport. Oh by the way, I've found plenty of "quality" gear new for less than the prices you're quoting.

If you think quality is determined by price, you need to do a little more shopping. I would also add that if you think skills will outlast gear by decades perhaps you need to check in to the "retro divers" section around here. The equipment we buy today will last a lifetime of diving, if cared for properly.

Furthermore, not everyone buys their gear. Still more don't buy new gear. Just because this sport can be expensive doesn't mean it has to be.

You can do all you want to try and justify price fixing (which is what you're recommending, despite what you've said in your other post) but it still won't make it realistic. Sure, some independent instructors will be able to charge more but on the whole, people simply won't pay those kind of prices in numbers large enough to support the industry at its current size.

If you want to put industry professionals out of business so badly, why not start with yourself?