Two fatalities in Monterey

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Sorry Don, But Ken is 100% on the money here, that is why we teach our students drop their weights at the first real sign of an emergency, This whole damn thing is so sad!!!

Uhm, this is actually terrible advice and likely to lead to lung barotrauma.

Even PADI only teaches ditching weight and doing a positive buoyancy ascent as the absolute last option, and it is after the option of doing a controlled emergency swimming ascent (note that this is a SWIMMING ascent, not a BALLISTIC ascent after dropping weights).
 
Peter and I spent some time last night, trying to construct a scenario where the divers would stay together but both die. One of the things we considered was vertigo and disorientation in midwater, and divers who couldn't keep it together to be sure they were always going UP. Dropping weights in this instance, although a last option, would at least solve the "which way is up?" problem.

Diver A runs out of gas due to inattention and signals to diver B.

Diver B fails to deliver gas to diver A quickly.

Diver A fights diver B for the regulator in diver B's mouth and knocks diver B's mask off.

Diver A drowns and Diver B drowns and/or heads to the surface uncontrollably and blows their lungs.

Both of them wind up on the bottom near each other and are recovered.

I don't claim to have psychic abilities to predict what happened in this case, but that scenario is plausible and fits the outcome.

Whatever actually happened, managing your gas and practicing buddy awareness, emergency procedures and ascents would have almost certainly have avoided this (plus a Rescue course for training to avoid becoming a second fatality).

Bad gas is another possibility, but since one tank was recovered with some traces of gas in it, I expect that will get ruled out shortly.
 
On the weight-dropping subject, I've been thinking back to my OW training. I took OW in 2005, and then, after only making four dives in a period of four years, I took it again in 2009. Different instructors and in a different part of the country.

My first class was in cold water up north, but it's so long ago that I don't remember it as vividly. I do remember being able to ditch weight be an important concept, and I know we did it once, but I don't remember whether it was on the surface or at depth (and the open water depth was only about 20' on those dives).

The 2009 class was in the Florida keys, so "warm" water (although it was winter and we were in 3mm suits). Again, I remember learning about ditching weights, and how it was important, but I am pretty sure we ditched them on the surface (not that I'm saying we were told NOT to ditch them at depth; I just don't remember).

The thing that sticks with me MORE, is the constant training (and fear of) "the runaway ascent." This was stressed both times (for obvious reasons). I'm thinking that with the tendency of beginner divers to bolt for the surface if there's a problem, and with the instructors/agencies trying to impress upon students the importance of slow ascents and not getting bent/barotrauma, that the runaway ascent is taught as a very real enemy (and indeed, when we had bad-control moments in OW class, we were usually finding ourselves going UP not down).

I don't remember us talking about what would happen if we got into trouble on the bottom and we *weren't* fighting off a runaway ascent. Again, it may have come up, but I'm not sure, and in any case it didn't really stick in my mind.

It was stressed to have ditchable weights, absolutely. The buckle of the weight belt was supposed to always face the same way so your buddy would not be confused if he/she had to help you ditch them. And they ALWAYS had to be ditchable. So, it's not that that wasn't covered.

So, I'm just wondering if the combination of the propensity for a runaway ascent among beginners, and the fact that (as I now understand) rescue has been taken out of OW and moved to Rescue, that there is less emphasis on (or maybe even lack of) the idea/scenario of ditching weight at depth.

Also, from my own experience, I can easily imagine these divers being overweighted if they were close to OW certification. I know I was, and I was not trying to "sink" a 7mm+ suit (as I would imagine they were?). Although the effects of that would have been diminished by empty tanks...

Obviously, I don't have anything conclusive here, and my instructors were not their instructors. I just was thinking out loud about the weight-dropping question as I was vividly remembering practicing dropping them in the pool, and at the surface in OW, but not at depth. I guess maybe students could practice ditching at depth with full tanks, presuming one's configuration would allow for that without the runaway ascent (I'm imagining a lot of runaway ascents in our class though...so I'm not sure.) At least it could be discussed if not practiced.

Jax, I could see your anonymous speculation --- it seemed really plausible to me. Presuming we had both run out air by suprise (or one of us had and the other was close), I could imagine that scenario starting to shape up with my buddy. Maybe the second boy didn't really think about the fact that the OOA was because they were *both* about to run out, but instead thought it was some other problem that had caused his buddy not to be getting air, and then was trying to help and really focused on his buddy, in challenging conditions, and then by surprise he ran out of air too (?)
 
Ken Kurtis, is this common in dive related accidents after being brought up from depth? (Referring to a drowning victim brought to the surface and will the lower pressure cause the victim's lungs to rupture and blood to come out of the victim's mouth and nose.

Karl Huggins, director of the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber, and I were discussing this earlier today. Bringing an unconscious diver to the surface should not cause an embolism/lung-rupture if the airway is open.

However, there could be blood present if there was some sort of a prior lung rupture or perhaps sinus issues. Or, if there was aspiration of sea water, you could end up with pinkish frothy fluid coming from the mouth &/or nose.

But if the diver is unconscious, they're not "holding" their breath since that's a conscious effort. All the air passages ought to be relaxed so whatever expanding air there is, should vent out.

- Ken
 
I guess it might be a good idea to practice ditching at depth with full tanks, presuming one's configuration would allow for that without the runaway ascent (?)

No, that's a terrible idea.

Bar none one of the worst practice/training ideas ever.

There's so many other things that you can practice to make it so that you'll never need to think about this option.

The controlled, swimming CESA is even a bad option that can be trained around.

And if this wasn't true then cave diving and/or technical diving would just be outright suicidal (try a CESA in a cave? ooops...)
 
What is the overhead boat traffic like in Monterey? Could the bleeding from the head be an injury from a boat?
 
Diver A runs out of gas due to inattention and signals to diver B.

Diver B fails to deliver gas to diver A quickly.

Diver A fights diver B for the regulator in diver B's mouth and knocks diver B's mask off.

Diver A drowns and Diver B drowns and/or heads to the surface uncontrollably and blows their lungs.

Both of them wind up on the bottom near each other and are recovered.

I don't claim to have psychic abilities to predict what happened in this case, but that scenario is plausible and fits the outcome.

Whatever actually happened, managing your gas and practicing buddy awareness, emergency procedures and ascents would have almost certainly have avoided this (plus a Rescue course for training to avoid becoming a second fatality).

Bad gas is another possibility, but since one tank was recovered with some traces of gas in it, I expect that will get ruled out shortly.

Bad gas would explain the two divers on the bottom nicely; it is also the only probable cause that can be confirmed or dismissed with certainty.

And granted, a diver who is on the way up can go back down if he fills his lungs with water before he reached about 8 pounds positive buoyancy; after that he will keep going up due to expansion of the compressible volume in B and exposure suit. However, what you normally see in OW is the Poseidon Missile ascent for the most benign reasons.
 
No, that's a terrible idea.

Bar none one of the worst practice/training ideas ever.

There's so many other things that you can practice to make it so that you'll never need to think about this option.

The controlled, swimming CESA is even a bad option that can be trained around.

And if this wasn't true then cave diving and/or technical diving would just be outright suicidal (try a CESA in a cave? ooops...)

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I was trying valiantly to come up with some "good reason" why students should practice ditching weights at depth (if, indeed, the lack of that contributed to these boys' death). But really it was making me imagine a class full of uncontrolled ascents.

Should it even be discussed as an option then (in OW class)?

And, one other thing is that I don't have the experience of having a rig that would be impossible to swim up, I don't think. I'm hedging because when I took a wreck class last winter, I'm not sure if I could have swum up that rig or not, when my tanks were full at the beginning of the dive (was different than my usual set-up). I can appreciate that things are totally different out there, especially if they were in thick wetsuits with heavy tanks (does anyone know what they were using for suits/tanks?).

Thanks for setting me straight :)

Blue Sparkle
 
Bringing an unconscious diver to the surface should not cause an embolism/lung-rupture if the airway is open.

Apparently it is quite common for divers who are unconscious or already deceased while at depth to embolize on the ascent.

If the diver has a laryngospasm or who knows for what reason, including sinus issues, congestion, asthma, etc., the airway may not be open and the expanding air may not vent fast enough.
 
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