tangential issues from a mishap thread

[DevonDiver]

That's a really inaccurate, incompetent and vague news report. Would be interested to hear some proper facts about this, should they become available.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread is a compendium of off-topic, tangential, no-content, general info, not-mishap-related and other posts culled from a mishap thread in the Accidents and Incidents forum, where they don't belong.

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[coldwatercanada]

" was diving at a nearby lake when this occurred, and spoke with some of the individuals involved in the attempted rescue so, while it is nothing but rumor and hearsay as I have no direct knowledge, I think I can add some information to help with the discussion."

For someone who wasn’t there you seem to be fairly certain with your facts! And if you weren’t there, didn’t see the diver or the accident you have some very specific facts. I’d like to correct a few alarming items with this thread.

"My understanding is that the student was separated from the group with his buddy, when he had a free flow"

My understanding is the ratios up there were 1 staff to every student, which means their buddy would have been staff and they wouldn’t have been separated from the group. Also even if the reg had started free flowing the diver surfaced with air in his tank still.

“Less weight. There seems to be a cavalier attitude to properly training weighting to a diver. I often here the comment better too much than too little, and while that may be true for being a little overweight or a little underweight, it does nothing to teach a diver proper weighting, which makes things difficult for new divers with changing equipment configurations (i.e. warm water to cold, fresh water to ocean). This is one skill that needs much more attention in OW classes, generally speaking."

I don't know how the Calgary stores run there AOW but in Edmonton by Sunday the divers have already done 3 dives. One of which is the Peak performance dive where a dive professional watches them perform skills such as hover at several different depths, Swimming through obstacles testing their buoyancy skills, adding or shedding weights as needed. So regardless of what dive they were on they already have had a day of practice.

“Too many places to release weight. I don't know, but I believe there was both a weight belt and integrated weights. Again I don't know the configuration, but for new students releasing 2 weight pouches and a weight belt is too many steps when OOA"

As I do not disagree with this statement with this weight configuration I’ve only seen dive stores do the 80% belt 20% pouch ratio thus if the belt is released the student still becomes positively buoyant.

"You would be better off hiring a DM or finding a mentor to take you diving in the environment in which you trained until you get comfortable with the skills you were supposed to have learned in OW"

Students take the AOW because they want to advance their skills and want to learn more, They would have had to watch more DVDs and do more questions that are checked over by the instructor before the students even hit the water, also any students who don’t show competence or mastery of basic skills on the more basic dives will not be allowed into do the underwater nav, night and or deep dive

"One if the instructors once mentioned that if they did everything properly they will run out of business as people will not come seeing how much effort it takes to train properly"

I don’t know who told you this or what organization they were certified under but it’s always been my thinking that the more competent the diver the easier it is for the instructor to teach and keep them safe?

"Perry Sollway"

Ask anyone in the Edmonton dive community what they think of Mr. Sollways practices and opinions on diving, we are, after all, talking about the man who got kicked out of all Canadian national parks for places about 200 random pink flamingos all over jasper and Banff. He doesn’t even own or work for a store.

From DAN "1 death per 200,000 dives" PADI Canada "7-10 training deaths a year"

SO if I where you i'd become a little more educated before I started giving my opinions. Nor would I speculate on something that you have no confirmed information on. My condolences to the family. That is all that really needs to be said at this time.

 

[Jax]

Not saying this had anything to do with the accident, but one of my biggest complaints with the way most scuba divers are taught is that there is way more emphasis on what to do when you run out of air than there is on how to not run out of air in the first place.

<snipped>

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Here, here!

 

[Jax]

" was diving at a nearby lake when this occurred, and spoke with some of the individuals involved in the attempted rescue so, while it is nothing but rumor and hearsay as I have no direct knowledge, I think I can add some information to help with the discussion."

For someone who wasn’t there you seem to be fairly certain with your facts! And if you weren’t there, didn’t see the diver or the accident you have some very specific facts. I’d like to correct a few alarming items with this thread.

You seem to be on the super defensive, and it is your first post. Were you there? If not, why are your "facts" any different than the person who stated up front his info was hearsay?

One of the tenets of this forum that if one is speculating or relating 3rd-hand info, so state. If not, state your position, please.

We don't attack people, here, for speculating. It's a way to learn to think a problem through.

 

[DandyDon]

Welcome to SB. Since this is your first post, I presume that you are here specifically to address this discussion? I have a couple of questions about your post please...

My understanding is the ratios up there were 1 staff to every student, which means their buddy would have been staff and they wouldn’t have been separated from the group. Also even if the reg had started free flowing the diver surfaced with air in his tank still.

That shop assigns a staff member to each AOW student as a buddy, really? I think my Padi Inst had 6 or 8 in the AOW group with one DM, and he didn't get wet on some of the dives.

"Perry Sollway"

He doesn’t even own or work for a store.

He is listed as the primary Inst: who we are

 

[elan]

That is all that really needs to be said at this time.

Not saying that this is not to be done. But

All the fatalities that occurred in Ontario during the last year had no information available for the public. I remember at least 3. Everything is swept under the carpet and no one knows the details.

Everything was ended with condolences and statements that the reports will be released when appropriate. One can guess it never happened.

That is very sad as we without doing the analysis we learn nothing. And this seems to be a tendency now.

Students go and dive Forest City and Arabia out of OW class with only 6 dives doing their AOW and they die. Because they are not OW dives nor even AOW course dives.

Students would not know what they need to expect as they are not experienced. Instructors take them there and tell them they will be fine.

When I only had 20 dives my buddies called me to dive those wreck and I wanted to go but it never happened for different reasons. After talking to different people I was under impression that those are doable dives and I will be fine. Guess what , I finally did those wrecks after almost 200 dives under the weight belt diving doubles and the time we started descending to those wreck I thought, God I was lucky that I did not dive it at those 20 dives. Those wrecks deserve serious respect and if you do not give it they will kill you in no time.

I still see the students going there for AOW training all the time.

The bottom line is students have to know what they are actually facing that it is not easy, it will kill you if you approach it with a wrong attitude, improper equipment and inadequate training.

If you are overweight and dive a wreck with 150 ft bottom with AL80 in 38F chances are you end up on the bottom with no gas. And instructors know that but they still take the students there. This is very disturbing.

 

[coldwatercanada]

No i was not there and no i do not know what happened, and the reason i haven't had an account on here in a while is because sometimes the lack of educated opinions on this board bothers me and gets into arguments! And when you dont know the problem much as i dont, how can we learn from speculation???? but i have just as much right to comment as the individual who wasnt there!

Furthermore as someone whos has received all my training in alberta i was alarmed by her lack of knowledge of how training is done in alberta. I also hate when people fear monger about cold water diving. I've been an alberta diver with more than 1000 cold water dives and have dive buddies ranging from brand new ows students to master scuba divers, and have done several training programs with several different stores. When i did my AOW training there was 3instructora and 2dms with the open water course,happening at the same time, the instructors organized the dives so that the deep water, night and nav dive occured when the ows werent at the lake so all 5 pros came in for 8 students.

Perry owns a small business licence but doesnt actually physically have a store.

And weight ditching is taught as well as bcd removal at the bottom and on the surface, weight ditching is usually one or two clips or a weightbelt instead of removing your full bcd, also known as quick releases.

If you are a DAN member you can access the Fatality report that is published each year on reported diving deaths around the world. It is as specific as possible without mentioning names of those who are involved. This is the best way we can learn from incidents that are happening and discuss ways to avoid them in the future.

I can only comment on the stores that I dive with in Alberta, and they are extremely safe and do everything possible to ensure that the risks are minimized. However this is Scuba and there are risks that we all agree to take. This type of speculating just encourages rumours and can be more hurtful than helpful. IMO it sounds like some of the stores in that people on here are diving with are choosing to be greedy rather than safe and over staffed. Instructors in alberta know the risks involved in Cold water diving. And until some of you come here to dive maybe you should keep speculation to a minimum.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"Perry Sollway"

Ask anyone in the Edmonton dive community what they think of Mr. Sollways practices and opinions on diving, we are, after all, talking about the man who got kicked out of all Canadian national parks for places about 200 random pink flamingos all over jasper and Banff. He doesn’t even own or work for a store.

Hmmm ... joined today, first post comes in and posts this stuff.

Sounds like shop politics to me. From the report, it doesn't sound like Mr. Sollway was involved in this accident ... more like he is someone who was interviewed by the reporter for background information. I don't agree with what he said about running out of air, but unless he was involved in the accident somehow, it's rather irrelevent. You don't tell us anything about yourself, but from the tone of your post I think it's a safe guess that you are, in fact, associated with the shop involved in this accident. So rather than attacking other posters, why don't you tell us what really happened?

That Mr. Sollway doesn't own or work for a store is meaningless ... neither do I, nor do some of the better local instructors I know. To my concern, that's an advantage, as we are not focused on drumming up business by taking students places they're not ready for.

SO if I where you i'd become a little more educated before I started giving my opinions.

Some friendly advice ... establish your own credibility before attacking someone else's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[coldwatercanada]

I wonder why he was the only dive "profesional" in the edmonton area willing to talk to the media and to make sure his name got in the artical, and if you read my previous post i have had accounts on here before.

 

[Jax]

I wonder why he was the only dive "profesional" in the edmonton area willing to talk to the media and to make sure his name got in the artical, and if you read my previous post i have had accounts on here before.

So you are saying coldwatercanada is a sock-puppet?

As for the rest of it -- you have no "facts", you have only your opinion and observations. Please state them as such, and remember, that every person on this board has the same privilege of stating their opinions and observations, as long as they do so respectfully.

You have attacked markmantei when he did nothing more than what you did - post his opinions and what he heard, and he at least identified them as such.

Now, you say you have received all your training in Alberta. What training was that, and where, and with whom?