Incident on the Spiegel

[moubike1]

Easy there hardtime. Just pitching in some advise from EXPERIENCE with seizures. Not trying to play doctor. I have always read the posts from people claiming to get beat up on this forum and I am starting to see what they mean. As for hijacking the thread, I thought that the original post regarded seizures and diving. Am I mistaken?

 

[The Chairman]

BTW, I think I was on the boat with Dan G on the Get Wet, owned by Chris Brown of Silent World. I couldn't dive, so I was helping to crew the boat with friends. The boat involved in the incident was also called the Get Wet. I was surprised at how many peeps called around to be sure that I wasn't involved. I wish that there was a law to prevent two commercial boats operating in the same area from having the same name. Its confusing to hear the name on the radio, especially when Coast Guard is asking you to meet them somewhere.

 

[elmer fudd]

I think one other thing to consider is that maybe this wasn't DCS at all, (disclaimer: I'm not a Dr. so this is of course just speculation).

Consider the dive. 93', 30% nitrox, 20 min at depth, 3 minute safety stop at 15', and a slow, controlled ascent. Plus, the symptoms started to become apparent at 15'. That last part is what makes me wonder. Sure, someone might have a PFO, be dehydrated or have some other condition that puts them at risk of DCS, but for fairly serious symptoms, (partial paralysis), to become apparent at 15' after a dive that is well within NDL's and then have virtually no symptoms of being seriously bent on the surface just makes me think, maybe something else was involved.

Whatever the case, I'd certainly want some answers before I went diving again. Passing out underwater is generally fatal.

 

[TommyTutone]

Yes, the boat I was on was the Get Wet, but not the Silent World one. I don't know how many names I want to throw around yet simply because I'm still really struggling how much of this is my fault versus potentially the fault of others. That is, using the Spiegel for AOW training, the lessons prior to this (our navigation, night, and photography) not really 'feeling' up to par. There is no question in my mind that were I uncomfortable with the dive, I should not have gone in the first place and to that end, the fault is mine.

The neurologist in Key Largo recommended the PFO test, as well as a second MRI when I got home. I met with my gp yesterday, who admittedly does not know much about diving, but talking with him, I mentioned DAN, and he is going to try and get me in with a neurologist specializing in dive medicine. As it is referred by him, hopefully it will still be in network, and if not, I do have DAN insurance along with my normal insurance.

Regardless, I have no question in my mind exactly how lucky I am to be here right now, but I kind of want my life back to normal, to be able to get off the medication to drive again, and hopefully to dive again someday.

Thank you all for the well-wishes, I REALLY appreciate it.

 

[ianr33]

Thanks for the post and please keep us informed.

I especially liked this bit of your report!

The captain asked me if I was okay, at which point I spit out my regulator, said yes, and passed out,

 

[aquaregia]

Yes, the boat I was on was the Get Wet, but not the Silent World one. I don't know how many names I want to throw around yet simply because I'm still really struggling how much of this is my fault versus potentially the fault of others. That is, using the Spiegel for AOW training, the lessons prior to this (our navigation, night, and photography) not really 'feeling' up to par. There is no question in my mind that were I uncomfortable with the dive, I should not have gone in the first place and to that end, the fault is mine.

Thanks for the report. It's rare to really see a good explanation of these incidences. I'm glad to hear you're doing okay and hoping to dive again.

I'll agree with you that the fault is entirely yours. I've seen much, much worse AOW deep sites than the Spiegel, like dark, 40F quarries with students without lights or proper exposure protection. I know the current is high at times, but it's better to first see it in a class than alone, and many people complete AOW with fewer dives than you had. You felt weird, and shouldn't have done the dive.

However, I've done many, many dives I shouldn't have done, and a few times it's gone poorly for me (although not as bad as yours!). It's good that you were aware that you were uncomfortable; awareness is always preferable to blissful ignorance. I'd happily dive with you, if you dive again.

 

[BKP]

I'm w/ aquaregia as per an AOW checkout dive on the Spiegel. Given no ripping current, it's the perfect site... Warm, typically great viz, proper depth w/ a sandy bottom stop if need be, and a built in descent line. My checkout was through 3 thermoclines into 48 degree water, 8ft. visibility, and no descent line.

I was out with the "other" Get Wet, (same one as you, Tommy), a little over a month ago, and from my perspective they were nothing but professional, attentive, and accommodating. I do agree w/ Pete about identical boat names in the same area -- it can possibly create confusion at times.

Again, best wishes for a quick resolution and recovery. And, if and when you're ready to splash again, I'm in your area, and we're always looking for new local dive buddies...

 

[Lorenzoid]

What a well written and informative report! We so rarely get to hear firsthand from the person who met with the misfortune. As others have said, please keep us updated on any further diagnoses.

I had about that many dives when I dove the Spiegel Grove, and between the current and depth it duly freaked me out, narrowly avoiding a panic attack.

 

[Puffer Fish]

Wow Tommy, rough dive & close call. :shocked2: Just amazing. I am so glad you came out of it ok and thank you for coming here to tell us your story. I did not see any mention of DAN DAN Divers Alert Network but even if you have not talked with them, I am sure they would like to work with you, learn about your accident as well as offer medical advice from some of the top dive doctors in the world. They take emergency calls collect 24/7 for anything, even my grandson's ear drum injury free diving, but non-emergency conversations are best during business hours.

Otherwise, do any of you members giving medical advise here happen to be licensed to practice medicine? Jeeze! DAN Alert Diver magazine had an excellent article on PFOs, with comments from actual dive physicians. See Alert Diver | PFO and Decompression Illness in Recreational Divers but some of the comments may surprise you. A few of interest...

Dr. Richard Moon: It is important to keep in mind several issues. First, the relationship between PFO and DCS is an association. While there is a plausible explanation for the apparent connection (i.e., DCS triggered by arterial bubbles), this is not yet proven. Indeed, PFO has not been linked to the most common symptoms such as pain-only bends, numbness, tingling or fatigue.

Dr. Bove: I would not recommend PFO closure in any sport diver, whether or not the diver had a DCS incident.​

But there is a lot more there to learn from.


So what do you base that claim on? It certainly contradicts the expert panel referenced.

Dandy, The only thing worse than some non-doctor giving medical advice is a doctor pretending to be an expert in statictical evaluations. There is absolutely nothing in their training that would provide that skill set.

Dr. Bove's comment is a very valid one, considering PFO closure is very serious operation. It is the opinion of many that getting heart surgery so you can go diving is not worth the risk. However, that is an opinion, not a medical diagnosis. Someone else may and do have a different view of this.

Dr Moon's comments are, well pretty much babble. A small, but significant number of people have died from large amounts of arterial bubbles, far more than can be accounted for from Nitrogen bubbles. There are several known causes of this, with one being a PFO in the wrong size and location. As a large number of people have PFO's and only a small number of people have this issue, it would be "reasonable" to assume there is no cause and effect. However, because location and size play a role, lumping them all together just makes a lot of noise.

So, if you were a new diver, and on your first deep dive, got a rather serious and dangerous hit, would you:

a. Lets just try this again, and see what happens, or
b. See if there is a known medical cause for this.

I vote b....but then I am not a doctor.

 

[srhein]

Tommy, it is great to read a report from a survivor, especially one as detailed and coherent as yours. Hopefully you will be
diving again soon, after your various medical assessments of course. Regarding the (mild) uproar about Internet doctors, I am going to assume that you are bright enough to take the well-meaning if unsolicited advice in the spirit in which it was intended. Welcome to Scubaboard, home of at least as many opinions as there are members!​