tangential issues from a mishap thread

[flots am]

Whats the first thing you get tought in your rescue course??? 100 points anybody anybody???

Can't speak for anybody else, but in mine, it's "Don't dive with people who are going to get you killed" and "If a dive seems dangrous or scary, stay on the boat"

flots.

 

[markmantei]

That's easy. It's an OW no-deco recreational dive in cold water. The procedure is exactly the same as for any other air-delivery failure: you and your buddy end the dive and surface, sharing air if necessary.

"Easy" and "works every time" is much safer and more useful than trying to make a decision under severe time constraints with a huge distraction level where a bad decision could be fatal.

The only thing an OW diver really needs to know in an emergency is how to safely get to the surface and stay there.

flots.

Maybe I'm an idiot, and yes its a snap decision. But if I'm at 60ft or 80ft or deeper, I don't think a bolt to the surface is always the right answer. Swim 80 ft up, or swim 3 or 4 feet to my buddy with a reliable air source. While my decision will certainly be influenced by my trust level in my buddy's skills, and the amount of air I have available, I will plan (when dry) to go to the nearest source of air. Even with nothing in my tank, I can still make a safe and controlled ascent breathing from a buddy's octo, that is after all why he/she is there.

 

[coldwatercanada]

The padi AOW is its own course, it includes adventure dives to get the students a taste of different specialities. It also gets the students deeper but doesn't certify them the same way the deep diver course. A student with only there AOW cant go down 130 feet like a student with the SSI one can. Ssi's AOW course is like padi's master diver course except students usually have less experience starting the ssi one. They gain their experience by doing each individual speciality in order from easiest to more advanced instead of one dive in each. A student who does the PADI AOW doesn't have to ever do a deep dive again if they don't want.

"The first diver to locate the diver on the bottom was unable to even budge the victim with fully inflated equipment, which is why they had to summon additional divers to extract the victim."

Since were talking about rumors, the rumor I heard was that the student was brought up by a stage bottle one of the pros had with him. Hooked the stage bottle into the victims inflator hose and using that to inflate his bcd. But this was tied into the they where at 200ft doing tec diving rumor too.

The other thing you must consider is the buddy that let go of the victim and went back down after might have burned so much air when they went down they weren't calm and couldn't safely bring the diver up without risking themselves and had to wait for more help. I don't know if any of you have ever panicked yourselves or dealt with a panicked diver but in a lake that could be anywhere from 15ft-90ft you can use a lot of air up.

And last but not least without knowing the size or build of the buddy trying to bring up the victim you cant judge on the lift he/she had in there bcd. And unless any of you have recovered dead bodies or even blackout victims again . . . at you don't know how much dead weight a person can be.

"I personally see the big failure here was not dropping weight, given what little I know."

When you're recovering a body you bring up all the gear and according to your account the victim had been back under water for 15 minutes again . . . at that point it's a recovery. had they done this sooner it might have affected the outcome

"The reason I asked you for the SPECIFIC source is that I don't believe either DAN or PADI says anything of the kind. I think you made those statistics up. I am not going to search for something I don't think is there. YOU cited the statistics--YOU provide the source."

Ever get those numbers???

"Would it not have been a possibility, given the diver falling back down, to descend, get the diver back on air, and try to release weight on the bottom before trying to bring the diver to the surface again?"

you're a 100 percent right but this is where none of us know right??? we don't know why that didn't happen. and unfornaatuly dude to padi regulations the store cant comment till both the padi investigation and the Rcmp one are complete as well. and even then other then the staff involved and the family we prolly will never know.

 

[coldwatercanada]

"No, ... you'd be right ... I don't do those things in OW. Nor do I understand what relevance they have to training someone to self-rescue ... or to help someone else."

They don't its what gets tough in the AOW you said you teach all of the AOW stuff in your OW course as much stuff in your ow as we do in both the ow and the AOW



"I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, but after two clear evasions, I NOW BELIEVE YOU ARE FLAT OUT LYING."

1-800-565-8130
ask for pat

 

[coldwatercanada]

and when person a tell's person b to call the same two places person a got their info from and person b cant understand this concept person b is a jack ass

 

[Jax]

:classic:

:fail:

:caveman:

:sinq:

 

[ScubaSteve]

<snicker>

Welcome to ScubaBoard coldwatercanada. Calling people jack asses.......generally not a good way to stick around. Have you admitted to trying to spread BS to benefit a particular shop yet?

 

[coldwatercanada]

ha ha no because i work for a couple different ones and i really dont think ive been pro for or against any stores other then my calgary crack (go oilers) but i've admitted to having 2 accounts deleted in the past due to people complaining about me telling them there retards. I don't know anything but no one else does either and i figured id just jump on the rumors and vague facts train!! is that ok???

 

[boulderjohn]

"The reason I asked you for the SPECIFIC source is that I don't believe either DAN or PADI says anything of the kind. I think you made those statistics up. I am not going to search for something I don't think is there. YOU cited the statistics--YOU provide the source."

Ever get those numbers???

Realizing the concept of the burden of proof is beyond your understanding, I did indeed get some numbers and facts.

Your Claim: A statistic exists showing the number of fatalities per 100,000 dives.
An article in the third quarter PADI Undersea Journal, their most recent issue of the magazine it sends to its members, says that such statistics do not exist and cannot possibly be found.

Your Claim: Fatalities for students in training courses in Canada alone average 7-10 per year.
I just went through all the fatality descriptions for the last two DAN fatality reports (2007 and 2008). I read every one and noted every case in which a student died in both Canada and the United States combined. Here are the results:

2007: 5 total deaths during training. One was due to a cardiac problem (that means heart problem, BTW). In another there was no identification of a cause in the report.

2008: 4 total deaths during training. Two were confirmed cardiac events and one was a probable cardiac event. There was another case of a student who had not completed OW dying while on scuba, but apparently not while in a class. The death is suspicious, and foul play is possible.

and when person a tell's person b to call the same two places person a got their info from and person b cant understand this concept person b is a jack ass

Since this apparently represents your ability to understand the concept, I will sincerely apologize for asking too much of you and leave it at that.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"The first diver to locate the diver on the bottom was unable to even budge the victim with fully inflated equipment, which is why they had to summon additional divers to extract the victim."

The other thing you must consider is the buddy that let go of the victim and went back down after might have burned so much air when they went down they weren't calm and couldn't safely bring the diver up without risking themselves and had to wait for more help. I don't know if any of you have ever panicked yourselves or dealt with a panicked diver but in a lake that could be anywhere from 15ft-90ft you can use a lot of air up.

And last but not least without knowing the size or build of the buddy trying to bring up the victim you cant judge on the lift he/she had in there bcd. And unless any of you have recovered dead bodies or even blackout victims again . . . at you don't know how much dead weight a person can be.

The problem I see here is that people are trying the wrong thing. Is this how they teach Rescue in Alberta?

Why didn't they inflate the victim's BCD? 'Cause he was outta air? Well ... gee ... never heard of manual inflate? Even PADI teaches that skill in their OW class. Why not use it?

In a Rescue class, you learn to use the victim's BCD for buoyancy ... that way you don't HAVE to struggle to get them off the bottom. Furthermore, if you should have to let go of them, they'll go UP ... not back down where you then have to start all over again.

When you're recovering a body you bring up all the gear and according to your account the victim had been back under water for 15 minutes again . . . at that point it's a recovery. had they done this sooner it might have affected the outcome

What an amazing thing to say ... when you're bringing a person to the surface, you drop gear if that's what it takes to get the person up. You can recover the gear later! People first! Gear later! ... it's a fundamental concept.

Furthermore, 15 minutes underwater in a cold lake doesn't necessarily mean it's a recovery ... cold water drownings often produce survivors. even after longer than 15 minutes. They just rescued a kid here over the week-end who was underwater for 25 minutes ... and he's talking to his mother today!

I'm beginning to believe that the fundamental problem here is that dive professionals in Alberta don't how to perform a rescue ... much less teach one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)