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At that point you consider the dive, "thumbed" and act according to plan. In my case that would be to immediately begin an ascent to my first stop.
No, that is not strange, when something goes wrong you don't wait to see if your self-rescues procedures are going to work, you start to use them and, at the same time, you get your buddy involved. One thing going wrong rarely kills anyone, but two things ... often can. There have been more than a few fatalities where a diver was last seen, dropping out of sight down the wall, continuing to unsuccessfully do arm sweeps to find their lost second stage.
Nope, the second that I identify a failure or start to go for any of my redundancies, the dive is thumbed, and I want my buddy right next to me prepared to help in any way possible.
There is no confusion, there is no panic, there is only well oiled, well practiced, standard procedures that you go to immediately. It is unusual, though not unheard of, to incur a deco obligation and not be planning for full gas supply failure at the least opportune moment.
That's a great reason to avoid diving with your average vacation diver, especially any deeper than you feel that you could surrender all your gear and still make it the the surface managing both yourself (with no gas) and the average vacation diver ... I'd guess that to be on the order of about 30 feet.
I guess I don't see what the big deal about SMBs are either, I've actually used one perhaps a dozen times in my life, but it is (I feel) a rather simple process as long as you no longer have to manage your buddy.
When I dive I plan with tables (or the scrolling display from my computer). Let's say that I've got an ANDL at 140 feet of 10 minutes and I'm planning a 10 min dive. I'd make damn sure that I have a plan for a 140 for 10 dive, and a 150 for 15 dive. If anything goes wrong, I make sure that I am up and out and I decompress according to the 150 for 15 schedule (which I have calculated gas requirements for me and my buddy for). If I am outside of 150 for 15, all I can do is follow the 150 for 15 schedule and stop at 10 on my way up where I would empty my tank (or use my computer if it is working).
That opens up the entire question of how well trained should divers be and how much recent (and total) experience should they have if they are to dive without a real baby-sitter (as opposed to a "dive guide" who may or may not be useful in an emergency). If you use the window of experience that I use, 12 dives to 30 before 60, 12 dives to 60 before 100, 12 dives to 100 before 130, etc. for 150 and 190; and 12 dives within the previous 12 months; and one dive within the depth bracket that you are about to dive to withing the previous three months, then I'd say it's not biggie. If it is a biggie, either because of inadequate training, lack of experience, or rusty skills, I suggest being careful and not undertaking a potentially challenging dive, that's no biggie either.
If I have to make such a decision, then I am above 30 feet, even under ideal conditions (see above); otherwise, WE (as in the team I am diving with), all need to play our proper roles, not make decisions. These are roles that we have learned and practiced , and that is what makes it, "no biggie," even low vis, cold, current, what-ever.
That's a SAC rate of about .75, which is not out of line, let's say that you're planning a dive to 190 for 5 minutes. The plan is 3 minutes down, two on the bottom and then 6 minutes up to a 10 foot safety stop. If all goes right you've used 7.6 cubic feet going down, 10.2 on the bottom and 15.2 coming up. That's less than half a tank, even if you plan on another three cubic feet for a deep stop and three more for a safety stop. Your "exit" amount of gas is 15.2+3+3, round up to 22, so Bingo Air is twice that or 44 cubic feet, and you've still got 18 cubic feet in secondary reserve. So here's what the plan looks like: leave surface, arrive bottom (3 minutes, 2700 PSI), leave bottom (5 minutes, 2250 PSI), etc. If you overshoot and overstay, your bottom air consumption rises to 38 cubic feet and your deco obligation chews up another 5.2 cubic feet. To make that "problem" diving work you'd need 7.6 down, 38 on the bottom and then twice your ascent gas (22.8*2=45.6), for a total of about 92. Sounds like this dive, with contigencies, needs a bigger gas supply.
What's to "touch on" there that's unusual? First there's no EAN, too deep. Then, at 0.75 I'm sure not building up much CO2 and if I'm working hard this dive doesn't work because I'd be thumbing it on air consumption long before my 2 minutes of bottom time are up.
That is precisely the point, with crapola guidelines that appear absurd, even at first analysis, it is quite impossible to defend them or to provide intelligent guidelines.

PS: Please excuse any math errors, I ran these numbers in my head solely as an example and would not dive them without recalculating carefully.

I'm not clear. Are you trying to show that your dive practices aren't insane or are you saying that "never gonna go tech but wants to go deep" divers should consider this kind of thing?

Again, this thread is not about what you can or can't do. It's about what those other divers can or can't do after their OW, AOW, Rescue classes and maybe a couple of hundred dives.

I mean, a dive to 190 on air with 92 cubic feet of gas? Are you really advocating that for the someone who only has recreational dive training?
 
A number of people I know have taken classes that involved dealing with failures at depth. Without exception, they have all reported that one minute at the bottom to sort out the emergency is wildly optimistic, at least UNTIL they have trained and practiced to become faster and more effective. Although I'm sure there are people here who could stuff a regulator into the mouth of a frightened, out of gas diver, and immediately begin and completely and safely control a staged decompression ascent . . . there was a double fatality in California this year where a trained technical diver was unable to do that for an untrained recreational diver who exceeded his limits.

As far as the question of what narcosis does to brain cells, to my knowledge, there is no evidence that nitrogen does anything more than general anesthetics do. It depresses brain function while it is in high concentration, but it does not permanently damage or kill the cells.
 
I'm not clear. Are you trying to show that your dive practices aren't insane or are you saying that "never gonna go tech but wants to go deep" divers do should consider this kind of thing?
I know that "my" procedures are not insane since they have been used by thousands of people since 1952 without incident.

I have no idea of what a, ""never gonna go tech but wants to go deep" diver is since I find the entire current concept of a "tech diver" (despite being, at least in part, responsible for the original term) to be weird beyond comprehension.
Again, this thread is not about what you can or can't do. It's about what those other divers can or can't do after their OW, AOW, Rescue classes and maybe a couple of hundred dives.
If a diver can't do the sort of thing I'm talking about after OW, AOW, Rescue classes a couple of hundred dives, then I'd suggest that no where in their training did they learn to learn.
I mean, a dive to 190 on air with 92 cubic feet of gas? Are you really advocating that for the someone who only has recreational dive training?
Sure, why not? There are some things, like working as a team, effective buoyancy control, self rescue, buddy rescue and incremental depth experience that need to be in place, but that is not unreasonable to expect of a diver with OW (40 hr), AD (LAC), Rescue (Catalina), and a couple of hundred dives, especially if they learned in effective programs run by competent instructors. Maybe it isn't for the average 5 days of diving a year resort lizard, but "recreational diving" covers a lot of depth and breath.
 
halemanō;6115014:
Has knowone claimed either he or I are the one's to give anybody deep diving advise? Or are we just attempting to put out a welcome mat for any contenders to the mantel of "true recreational expert" to step on and give "recreational" deep diving advise?

Hahaha. ROTFL. A recreational deep diving expert?

Is that the guy who does all of those deep dives without the benefit of having proper knowledge, skills or equipment for the dives he is doing?

We should start another thread with a parallel topic. One where we ask all the recreational penetration diving experts to give us their insights on how to do baby cave dives without the benefit of a reel or lights, without knowledge of gas planning for overhead environments and without knowing any of Sheck's 5 rules.
 
I have no idea of what a, ""never gonna go tech but wants to go deep" diver is since I find the entire current concept of a "tech diver" (despite being, at least in part, responsible for the original term) to be weird beyond comprehension.

I dunno what it is either. It's Halemano's concept.

If I were to guess, its a person who wants to dive to >150ft but doesn't want to take any of the readily available technical dive training classes that are available from TDI, IANTD, PADI, etc.

I know that "my" procedures are not insane since they have been used by thousands of people since 1952 without incident.

Huh? Nobody has died doing a deep air bounce dive to depths of 150ft or deeper since the 50s?
 
No, there have been no fatalities amongst those trained in Scripps Model programs whilst doing deep diving, period, none, and our records (including dive logs) go back to 1952. I use that as a base because all recreational diving training finds it's origins in the scientific diving community and all recreational training was once identical to what we were doing at time (and still do), 100 hrs and 12 dives (thus rather similar to OW, AOW, Rescue and a few specials).
 
No, there have been no fatalities amongst those trained in Scripps Model programs whilst doing deep diving, period, none, and our records (including dive logs) go back to 1952. I use that as a base because all recreational diving training finds it's origins in the scientific diving community and all recreational training was once identical to what we were doing at time (and still do), 100 hrs and 12 dives (thus rather similar to OW, AOW, Rescue and a few specials).

Well there you go, there have been no fatalities amongst Scripps trained divers.

Therefore, deep diving to 190ft on air on a single tank must reasonable sane practice.

I consider myself corrected.

Apologies to all that got hurt or worse doing deep air bounce dives on a single tank. Clearly you should have taken your training from Scripps.
 
Do a little reading on the board, I don't have the time, or interest, to backfill your diving history education. But do so before you post more and look even more foolish.

A competent training program like one I outlined is a rough equivalent.
 
It is almost like you are not a diver?

You gotta admit, I am doing a helluva job BSing my way through this thread. Right?
 
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