Individual Rights, and other Myths

[Mike Boswell]

It's hypocritical to complain about having to pay someone elses health care bill when, in all likelyhood, someone will wind up paying for yours.
It's hypocritical to complain about others taking unneccisary risks while at the same time justifying 29,000' overheads as mitigated risk and therefore, somehow acceptable.
It's hypocritical to avail oneself of all the benefits produced in SCUBA by the "rugged individual" and at the same time condemn them.

DaleC, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more:

Re health care costs: These are skyrocketing out of control partly because of lifestyle choices like smoking and poor diets. I have been one of the guilty, and because others have had the courage to stand up and say something, I learn and try to do better. I don't call those people hypocrites, I thank them for telling me the truth.

Re risks: The first person to successfully challenge the unknown is a pioneer. They take the risks, and bring back their knowledge so that the rest of us can follow with the benefit of the knowledge provided. Others who simply repeat the heroic actions of the pioneers prove nothing; they are just trying to cover themselves in false glory.

Re rugged individuals: I admire them, I don't condemn them. And I am grateful for their contributions. But some kid trying to impress his buddies by deliberately performing a dangerous stunt is neither rugged nor an individual. He is a common, run-of-the-mill jackass, and his thoughtless and irresponsible acts are going to ruin things for everybody else. As a former young jackass, I should know!

 

[DaleC]

DaleC, with all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more:

Re health care costs: These are skyrocketing out of control partly because of lifestyle choices like smoking and poor diets. I have been one of the guilty, and because others have had the courage to stand up and say something, I learn and try to do better. I don't call those people hypocrites, I thank them for telling me the truth.

There is nothing worse than the self rightiousness of the newly converted zealot.

Re risks: The first person to successfully challenge the unknown is a pioneer. They take the risks, and bring back their knowledge so that the rest of us can follow with the benefit of the knowledge provided. Others who simply repeat the heroic actions of the pioneers prove nothing; they are just trying to cover themselves in false glory.

What nonsense. Why not take a break and stop judging peoples motivation. Many people, pioneers and those after, just do what they do because they enjoy it. Your POV that only the "first" matter is what fuels the reckless pursuit of pushing the envelope by some so they can be "first" and claim all the glory.

Re rugged individuals: I admire them, I don't condemn them. And I am grateful for their contributions. But some kid trying to impress his buddies by deliberately performing a dangerous stunt is neither rugged nor an individual. He is a common, run-of-the-mill jackass, and his thoughtless and irresponsible acts are going to ruin things for everybody else.

When I reread your initial post I feel a little sad for you that you have such a poor opinion of divers and reserve respect and liberty for only a few "others" whom obviously are not your fellows. You've painted yourself into quite a small, mean, little mental box there that I, for one, choose not to inhabit. Diving for me is fun, at times adventurous and the people I share it with all have the capacity to be their own "Thomas Edisons" if that is what they want to be. Those I prefer not to dive with are haters who just moan and bitch about the current state of todays youth. They are always looking for someone to share their misery with but it ain't me.

" Some pretty savvy people here on SB have recently defended the principle of "Individual Rights", making the point that divers have the right to dive any way they like, as long as they don't harm others.

This is a version of the good old American ideal of the rugged individualist exercising his individual liberty, and has strong emotional appeal because it's linked to the successes of American icons like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and Steve Jobs.

But does it really apply to scuba divers? Do we have the "individual right" to dive in a reckless manner because it's nobody else's business? If there is an accident or fatality, is it true that it doesn't harm others?

Frankly, I find this argument to be childish, arrogant, and wrong. Childish because it fails to recognize the inevitable consequences of an accident on other people. Arrogant because the average scuba diver is no Thomas Edison. Wrong because the implicit assumption - of "no harm to others" - is virtually impossible."

 

[Mike Boswell]

There is nothing worse than the self rightiousness of the newly converted zealot.

What nonsense. Why not take a break and stop judging peoples motivation. Many people, pioneers and those after, just do what they do because they enjoy it. Your POV that only the "first" matter is what fuels the reckless pursuit of pushing the envelope by some so they can be "first" and claim all the glory.

When I reread your initial post I feel a little sad for you that you have such a poor opinion of divers and reserve respect and liberty for only a few "others" whom obviously are not your fellows. You've painted yourself into quite a small, mean, little mental box there that I, for one, choose not to inhabit. Diving for me is fun, at times adventurous and the people I share it with all have the capacity to be their own "Thomas Edisons" if that is what they want to be. Those I prefer not to dive with are haters who just moan and bitch about the current state of todays youth. They are always looking for someone to share their misery with but it ain't me.

Goodness, I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the new labels. Seriously, I don't think I have insulted you - why all the anger and invective?

 

[DaleC]

It is a subject I feel strongly about and you have thematically attempted to link "individual" with "irresponsible" several times. Some of us have a hard enough time relating our experiences regarding alternative diving concepts here and I see this as just one more attempt to discredit behavior that falls outside the agency/industry directed norm. If you want to address irresponsible behavior then adress it - if you want to address the individual approach to diving address that - but don't attempt to mix the two without some pushback from some members of the board (and some applause from others I suppose).

However, I do agree that I find myself getting drawn into a personal discussion that I neither desire nor find appealing. It really isn't how I wish to portray myself on the board and I also believe it to be less than constructive, so I will direct further comments in general terms.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't either. I don't think anybody does, but we may be moving in that direction. Any cop will tell you driving is a privilege, not a "right".

Like our highways, our oceans and lakes are regulated by the government, and whether we like it or not, they can tell us what to do, and how to do it.

Since "rights" cannot be infringed (in theory), I therefore conclude that all aquatic activity, including diving, is a privilege, not a right.


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Then there's ... LOL ???

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike Boswell]

Then there's ... LOL ???

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yes, LOL. On SO many levels...

 

[Mike Boswell]

It is a subject I feel strongly about and you have thematically attempted to link "individual" with "irresponsible" several times. Some of us have a hard enough time relating our experiences regarding alternative diving concepts here and I see this as just one more attempt to discredit behavior that falls outside the agency/industry directed norm. If you want to address irresponsible behavior then adress it - if you want to address the individual approach to diving address that - but don't attempt to mix the two without some pushback from some members of the board (and some applause from others I suppose).

However, I do agree that I find myself getting drawn into a personal discussion that I neither desire nor find appealing. It really isn't how I wish to portray myself on the board and I also believe it to be less than constructive, so I will direct further comments in general terms.

DaleC - My position is that divers have "privileges" instead of "rights", and that "privileges" for the many can be lost through abuses by the few. And I think that is a much better message to convey to all divers, and especially new divers.

 

[TMHeimer]

Mike, "privileges"-"rights"....Driving is a privilege, not a right, as they always say. But don't I have the "right" to drive a car if I qualify? --as long as I don't do something like DUI (DWI) to negate it. Seems like semantics.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Mike, "privileges"-"rights"....Driving is a privilege, not a right, as they always say. But don't I have the "right" to drive a car if I qualify? --as long as I don't do something like DUI (DWI) to negate it. Seems like semantics.

Well, I have the privilege of being able to dive, but I have the right to free speech and to bear arms. The government can impose limitations on my diving, but not on my free speech or gun ownersh....,,,?

Oh, wait...

 

[Guyotron]

Yes, LOL. On SO many levels...

Laugh out loud and throw them bacon?