Individual Rights, and other Myths

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

What legislations are in place around the world? How are they 'enforced'? How effective are they? Should they be applied globally?

One of the trends in international scuba diving has been the protected areas where fish populations thrive and divers can enjoy a natural, unspoiled environment. Governments create and police these underwater parks and levy fees for park entry, local businesses and populations benefit from the visitor spending, and pretty much everyone has a legitimate interest in regulating what is done in them.

Today there are few rules in these wonderful places, but inevitably, I fear that a few people will do stupid things and kill themselves or others, lawsuits will be filed, businesses will suffer, and governments will have no choice but to step in and curtail everybody's freedom.

The only people who can prevent this scenario is the dive community itself. And the only way we can do it is by education - sharing our hard-won wisdom with the next generation of divers.
 
Does the community majority have the right to legislate the minority?

Not in my opinion but as you have stated I am American and believe the majority does not have the right to dictate to the minority.

Do agencies have the right to legislate their 'customers'... who hold their certifications?

No, I did not sign any licensing contract stating I would obey any agencies rules to become certified.

Do agencies have the right to legislate dive operations, using the leverage of business accreditations/franchising and affiliations?

Once again no from me, that is a strong arm tactic that I find disagreeable and I cant speak to any country's laws except the USA where that would be frowned on and if challenged in court would probably not hold up.

Does an 'international' body like the RSTC have such rights?

No for the same reason as above.

What legislations are in place around the world? How are they 'enforced'? How effective are they? Should they be applied globally?

Those are good questions I would be interested in knowing the answer, as far as I know the only laws I have heard of have to do with using licensed DM's to dive in that countries parks. As far as a rule (law) applied globally well .. no.

The question of some agencies local, national or international legislating rules that could be enforced is nice for discussion but it would never happen, does anyone reading this think that every government and their respective law enforcement agencies would agree to enforce these legislated rules? I simply is not going to happen.

Until a person is reminded of the fact that basic beliefs of what constitutes freedom can be different in other countries that person (including me) will disagree with differing ideas but after they think about it or once reminded of the others point of view most will be open to hear their opinions. I admit most Americans are very quick to defend what we see as our basic "right" but it is because many have died gaining and defending those ideas and although other countries may see that as arrogant it is not intended to be or to offend, it is what our way of life is built on. I admit that the very idea that a group of people who don't like say "solo diving" could label it unsafe and make it illegal for others is so foreign to me that even considering that point of view is hard but I am interested in their opinion and why they believe that way. JMHO
 
Interesting that the discussion has moved on to comparing views and values of this country vs. that one. Though many laws have come to pass because people just can't behave reasonably, I still feel that we are over-regulated and have been for years/decades. A permit for this (that costs money), a regulation for that, etc. One of my favourites is arriving in the southern states and finding you need a permit to shore fish in SALT WATER (how on Earth is this not a law yet in the NE states?). I find the situation almost identical in both Canada and the U.S. (having lived many years in both). paulw makes some good points, but interesting that some Americans seem to feel that their "right" to make their own decisions indicates that there are fewer regulations on everything in the U.S. NOT! Fortunately SCUBA's lack of regulations is a throwback to a simple "freer" era.
 
Last edited:
When I was in Cuba, our guide took us shore diving at a place where there were "no diving" signs posted. It felt very wrong to be in a country where I wasn't really permitted to be, diving where I wasn't permitted to dive, but we did it anyway and it was an awesome dive :D
 
Does an 'international' body like the RSTC have such rights?

... the RSTC is, effectively, a private club. It has no authority over anyone but its members. And even with its members it doesn't appear to expect much.

I'd be hard put to see it as much more than a marketing department ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
The RST exists to pat itself (it's members) on the back about what a good job they are all doing.
 
you miss the point all together, whether you or i agree or disagree with the search aspect of teh airlines the fact remains that it is thier airlines, you do not have the right to force them to transport you. you only have the right to request them to transport you.. this is an issue of what is a right and what is apriviledge. you do not have the right to "not be offended". every issue in society is a touchy issue to someone no matter what side of the issue they are on. the idea that because one is born the have the right to dive is not to me sencable. i have said that because you are born you have toe right to persue diving. You have the right to persue being an astronaut, you don not have the right to become one.. rights begate obligations. priviledges do not. it is clear your position on the tsa policies are personal to you. because of that your views are clouded by the personal and blur the process. Every panhandler has the right to ask for food. you do not have the obligation to give him food because he does not have the right to get food from you. from the beggers point of veiw he has a right to get food by begging. he does not he has the right to ask only and hope for a charitable act.

BTW i do not trust the airlines because they searchgrandma and at the same time foroce you to submit bags unsecured for who know what anyone wants to insert in them. That is my personal position. i donnot have the right to demand how they do business. I do have thte right to not use thier business and go elsewhere. And i do. i transport myself. When i get to my destination i do not have the airlines to blame, it was my decision to drive and my price to pay for making tht decision.

What you view as a safety requirement and as the only avanue many of us view as security theatre that actually achieves little.

Grandma gets a body search while tons of cargo are loaded into the belly of the aircraft unchecked.

That's theatre.

Behavioural profiling (efficacy proven in the Middle East) is rejected because it offends some sensibilities. Yet millions are spent on scanners the experts scoff at as being next to useless, that have been shown to be easily passed.

Security theatre.

I could go on, but it does belong in another thread.
 
i did not say you had to have an agengy to say you were competant to dive. is you read book and self certify that is you porogative. the issue is " because you exist... you are entitled to dive." a right is something that you are owed or entitled to by virtue of your existance. all have the right to persue nearly any goal. the achievment of that goal is not a right. you have the right to persue being president but do not hav e the right to become. To become is a priviledge that is granted to you.

You have the right to take risks. You do not have the right to harm others. In that...i have the right to persue being a top crossbow shooter. i do not have the right to require you to stand against the tree with an apple on your head. i do not have the right to put you inthat kind of risk. I do not see careless diving as causing that kind of hard to others. Do i agree with careless diving...no. do i have the right to temm him not to do it.... yes.. doi have the right of his compliance. no. do i have the right not to dive with him so he only harms himself...yes. that is all that is being said. let me ask you: you and your buddy are at 80 " he wants to bounce to 150. you say no and call the dive. he heads to 150. whose intrests takes priority. your intrest of self preservation or his intrest to have a buddy?

if you say yours does i would say correct because you have a right to preserving your life. if you sayhis i will say you confuse rights with him having the priviledge of having you as a buddy.





"...Diving also is not a right, the priviledge is granted to those who demonstrait the skills and knowledge required for that level of certification."

This statement is not correct. No one (in the US) is required, by law, to take SCUBA training or to possess a C-card to go diving. Anyone who wants to can buy a few books, a portable compressor and SCUBA equipment, teach himself to dive and go do it. Other than privately owned SCUBA parks, quarries and dive boats, he is free to dive anywhere in the US that he wants to. He can circumvent the dive boats by getting his own boat and dive the same places that the commercial dive boats do. Many of us older divers did exactly that.

I dived without a C-card for 11 years before I finally decided to get certified.

It might be argued that recreational pursuits come under the heading of "The pursuit of happiness" and therefore are to be considered rights.

If one tries to claim that SCUBA is not a right, then one must also declare that no recreational activity is a right. Skiing, wilderness hiking/camping, skydiving, flying ultralight aircraft, shooting sports, swimming, etc. would then be considered privileges. None of these activities require formal training or licensing under the law and the government has shown little or no interest in changing this. The opposite is actually closer to the truth. For example, over the last three decades, the FAA has gradually lessened the requirements for pilots of certain small aircraft. Single seat ultralight aircraft pilots need no license to fly their planes and the planes themselves are not required to be registered.

The concept of individual rights has been a cornerstone of this nation's foundation since the beginning. Without the right to take personal risks, this country would not have expanded and flourished to near the level that it has. The idea that one must always consider the good of the many over the needs or desires of the individual is a socialist concept and foreign to the very fabric upon which this nation was built. In fact, defending the rights of the individual provides collateral benefits to the society as a whole.

Who would want to live in a society that controls every aspect of daily life under the pretense of performing the "greater good?" There is no such thing as living a safe, secure life. From the moment we are born, we are doomed, inevitably, to die. From that very first breath to the very last, we fight a losing battle against the Grim Reaper. In between, we can chose to live life to the fullest or spend it cowering in fear. Risk is a part of living and we all take risks every day of our lives, whether we realize it or not. Most of the risks we take are so much a part of daily existence that we have developed a system of denial to cover them.

Every day, we climb into machines made of thousands of pounds of steel and hurtle ourselves down the highways at breakneck speeds. We convince ourselves that we are safe because we have our seat belts buckled and modern cars have air bags. But this "safety" is an illusion. Once above a certain velocity, there is no safety equipment that will save you. I would be willing to bet that many of those who decry the idea of individual rights, on the basis that our personal actions must be restricted for the greater good, habitually cruise the Interstate highways at speeds well above the posted limits. Have you ever seen what is left after two vehicles, each traveling in excess of 70 MPH, collide head on? It ain't pretty. Yet the vast majority take just such a risk virtually every day.

Yes, I do believe that each individual has a right to take personal risks, as long as those risks do not directly threaten others. However, I advocate that those taking such risks should weigh them against personal abilities, knowledge, strengths and weaknesses. I do not have any inclination to do such things as bounce dives or deep dives on air and I learned first hand the dangers of cave diving without proper training and equipment, but I also feel it is none of my business if you want to do them. Just don't expect me to come looking for you. You have the right to risk your life doing a bounce (or solo or cave or wreck) dive and I have the right to not risk mine just to recover your corpse. I'll toss a wreath on the waves in your honor. That said, I admire those individuals who have the intestinal fortitude needed to explore the wild places. I only hope that they do so knowing the risks and only after adequate preparation.

Myself, I sometimes like to dive solo. I know the risks and try to reduce them by diving within my personal limits and abilities. It is still a risk but that risk is my right to take.

Human advancement is fueled by risk. Remove the individual's right to take risks and Mankind stagnates. As a species, we thrive on risk and adversity. If we have it too easy, too safe and secure, we get soft and decadent. Without danger, without conflict, we wither and decay emotionally. The need to fight against the odds is so ingrained in the human spirit that we will create artificial risks if none exists otherwise.

I fear that the United States is becoming a nation of wimps who are willing to relinquish rights and freedom in exchange for a false sense of security. Ben Franklin said that anyone who willingly trades liberty for security deserve neither. I agree.

As for the TSA, I feel less safe flying under their "protection." I would rather put my trust in my Army issue Colt 1911 A1 strapped to my hip than a bunch of perverted thieves whose primary contribution to air travel is to rifle through baggage to see what they can steal.

(Pant, pant) Okay. Rant over :D
 
does that mean you have the right to take the horse to water, but not the right of the horse drinking. bravo

Well, that is not strictly true, because we have had several posts from you, which I enjoyed and "liked" and agreed with.

And we have had posts from one or two Canadians, who are - technically - not Americans, except when they need their health care delivered with some alacrity.

And we have had a number of people from the country of Louisiana make some remarks, although for the life of me I cannot understand them.

But in the final analysis, it is up to non-Americans to "consider and discuss" the non-American viewpoint. We have led the horse to water, but we can't make him drink.
 
very good points, depending on what is a right what is assigned authority. what is a priviledge the answers on each will vary. i dont nkow what the RSTC is so that is my ignorance. I will say that each area whether it be by state or country of whet ever has is atonomous and as a body deterines what powers they give to the bodys that reglate or govern them.

Does the community majority have the right to legislate the minority?

yes as anagreed upon process by the majority of those under its decision.

Do agencies have the right to legislate their 'customers'... who hold their certifications?
yes so long as they are acountable for results they must exercise control of thier customers


Do agencies have the right to legislate dive operations, using the leverage of business accreditations/franchising and affiliations?
i dont like it but i have to say yes because with out diving in mind an agreed upon process was derived to handle issues. i find the abuse of the processes of more cncern but that was not your question.

Does an 'international' body like the RSTC have such rights? What is theI dont know what the RSTC is. sorry

What legislations are in place around the world? How are they 'enforced'? How effective are they? Should they be applied globally?
? ? ? no


Sure.

So..back to the original question:

If a scuba diver is hurt doing something reckless or stupid, it affects their friends, families, fellow divers, rescue folks, medical folks, insurance folks, dive businesses, and the reputation of the dive community. Do we have the "right" to do that?

Note: there is no explicit instruction that we're talking about an American scuba diver, who is diving in America. So, whilst the American definition of 'freedom' and 'rights' should be entertained - the progression of the discussion would be more universally beneficial if it didn't deal with the question solely on that basis. After all, America only accounts for approx 5% of the global population (1).

Does the community majority have the right to legislate the minority?

Do agencies have the right to legislate their 'customers'... who hold their certifications?

Do agencies have the right to legislate dive operations, using the leverage of business accreditations/franchising and affiliations?

Does an 'international' body like the RSTC have such rights?

What legislations are in place around the world? How are they 'enforced'? How effective are they? Should they be applied globally?


There's lots that we 'can' talk about... but "what (US) states you can wear bike helmets in" or "what the (US) constitution protects" is neither globally applicable, nor particularly developmental to the debate.

Just saying...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom