Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

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Once again, I am confused. The point of the thread is to introduce a discussion about a diving practice that is NOT endorsed by any agency. Taht is why such discussions are not allowed on SB right now, and the OP wanted to change it. If the OP wanted to talk about the PSAI or TDI deep air programs, there would be no prohibition and no need for this thread at all.

Discussing "a diving practice" or offering personal experiences does not necessarily mean promoting that practice. Agency validation, or not, should be ignored in determining what we can talk about.

Someone saying that he drived drunk one day invites discussion, saying that others should drive drunk is another, and I'd not allow the latter on a forum.
 
Someone saying that he drived drunk one day invites discussion, saying that others should drive drunk is another, and I'd not allow the latter on a forum.

Except that's rather the argument that seems to be being made here by Halemano and VDGM.
 
I don't think that's Halemano's take, and I'm not really sure where VDGM stands.
 
Discussing "a diving practice" or offering personal experiences does not necessarily mean promoting that practice.

Not so.

Stating personal practices/preferences from a position of authority is a form of advocating something. Experience and/or qualification can create a, by default, authoritative position on a subject. Such statements can easily create a form of influence amongst sub-peer groups.

I could pick a hundred comments from this, and other related threads, that could be seen to advocate practices which industry consensus determine to be dangerous (without appropriate training/qualification/experience).

Agency validation, or not, should be ignored in determining what we can talk about.

In regards to 'Agency validation', it is the agencies that provide the training for divers. They, being the originators of the training, are entitled to determine the specific parameters that the course/s concerned are capable to prepare a diver for. Having trained with 7 different agencies, and taught for 3 of them, I've not seen one example of where agency recommended limitations, or safe diving advice, has been out-of-scope compared to the content of the relevant courses.

There aren't many limits on what you can discuss here on Scubaboard - but 'advocating unsafe diving practices' is one of them. This thread clearly illustrates how the issue of 'unsafe diving practices' can be a very grey area - and context is critically important in determining which side of the line such a debate falls onto. That said, the line does have to be drawn somewhere. It seems abundantly logical to draw those lines at the limits supported by the agencies that train and certify divers. Those agencies have to account for themselves, and their training, legally. Private individuals, posting anonymously on the internet, do not. Having to account for yourself personally, legally and/or professionally does an awful lot to temper a viewpoint. It encourages prudence and a responsible attitude.

Someone saying that he drived drunk one day invites discussion, saying that others should drive drunk is another, and I'd not allow the latter on a forum.

So, if an NFL Quarterback said on a TV interview: "I drive drunk all the time, I don't see a problem with it. I never had an accident in 6 years of driving drunk. It's not my fault if some people can't handle their liquor. I can. So why should have to pay for a taxi home from the bar. Who are you to judge me and tell me what I can do?"

That's ok? No harm can come of it?

If a platinum selling rap artist wrote for a magazine article: "I've used heroin and crack for 15 years and I'm fine! I think too many people over-react to the issue of drug abuse, because they've never used it themselves. They don't understand. It should be an individual's right to choose.. and only the person concerned is capable of knowing what is best for themselves."

Still ok? Just a 'discussion point'? Just a 'point-of-view'?

Neither of those statements actually recommends or directs others to replicate their practices... but, given context, they can easily be viewed as advocating them.

Advocate - a person who pleads for a cause or propounds an idea.
Propounds - to put forward (an idea, theory, or point of view) for consideration.
 
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I don't think that's Halemano's take, and I'm not really sure where VDGM stands.

VDGM has many posts in the past couple months advising people that there is nothing unsafe about deep(ish) solo air bounce dives......even has a thread he started on it when all his illadvised postscript getting deleted.
 
I don't think that's Halemano's take, and I'm not really sure where VDGM stands.

Halemano's take seems to be;

I do X, Y and Z dives.
I haven't done specific training to complete X, Y and Z dives.
The agencies consider X, Y and Z training to be 'technical diving'.
I am a recreational diver, but I do the X, Y and Z dives.
Therefore, X, Y and Z diving shouldn't be considered technical diving.
 
Good Lord Devon, get a grip. Example: talking about child molestation does NOT mean defacto promotion of it. Drawing distinctions is what allows for conversation of complicated subjects.

This is a Technical Diver Forum, those who post here are well-versed in diving, and I for one do not grant any other person authority on how I dive. As an instructor it is a part my duty to instill in a student diver the ability and the confidence to make his own decisions concerning diving upon certification.

All viewpoints, including Halemano's, should be welcomed and debated on their merits. You don't consider Nitrox a "voo-doo" gas, do you? Do you know why?
 
Now since the deep air advocates in this thread (Thal excepted) have carefully avoided defining what they mean by a deep air dive, it may be that that's what you mean. But judging by the number of times e.g. Jax and boulderjohn have brought up AN/DP and the response was "conspiracy blah blah technical is evil," I'm guessing AN/DP is not what you had in mind.

I am again stating, for the umpteenth time in the past more than a month, that I am a Deep Air CONVERSATION Advocate, because over the previous couple weeks with deep air "just say no" threads in Basic and Beginning I became deep curious.

Devil's Throat is on my short list of hope to dive dives, and it was one of the reasons for one of my Warped View' threads; the no deco dives at Small Hope Bay Lodge are perhaps what a younger halemano would have pined for (before the last three major surgeries). So, 80' - 135' overhead exiting in "light deco" is perhaps not a bounce, but leaving 185' 6 minutes after the start of the descent and returning to near safety stop depth reef for 20 or less minutes is my max definition of "possibly recreation deep air bounce dive".

Please provide quotes where anyone called Technical diving evil; the unprovable accusations are getting pretty tiring. :shakehead:
 
Good Lord Devon, get a grip. Example: talking about child molestation does NOT mean defacto promotion of it. Drawing distinctions is what allows for conversation of complicated subjects.

This is a Technical Diver Forum, those who post here are well-versed in diving,.....

Which is why this debate is happening here. Re-read this thread (and if you'd caught other threads since removed), you'll see that some proponents of deep air/bounce diving have called for it to be open within the recreational (even Basic) diving forums.

I have no objection to debate on this subject here in the technical arena. As I posted earlier in the thread, the location provides a context to the debate.

We do actually agree on this.

I do, however, view this issue of advocation as being more than simply saying "go try this". I also take responsibility for what I post online... some obviously don't. Scuba Board as a forum does though, and people who voluntarily choose to be members here are expected to abide by the site TOS.

Given that it's relatively easy to open a website (wordpress etc) and install a forum plug-in... I'm surprised that certain members of the debate (who obviously have strong opinions that do not correlate with Scuba Board's approach) don't just start their own debate areas where they can do whatever they like and discuss whatever they like. After all, those people are claiming that this is an immensely popular and frequent past-time. If those claims are true, then their own board would flourish. If not, they'll be hanging around in Cyberspace with no friends and an empty auditorium to vent themselves in (much like their real-life existence, I imagine).

I guess they just don't want to take responsibility for what they wish to peddle... and prefer that Scuba Board take it upon their shoulders. LOL

The other option, of course, is for those people to lobby their respective diving agencies and seek for them to change their policies about deep air and bounce diving. Scuba Board's TOS is worded with sufficient flexibility to enable policy change in-line with changes in the consensus of the diving industry. Good luck to them with that...
 
Once again, I am confused. The point of the thread is to introduce a discussion about a diving practice that is NOT endorsed by any agency. Taht is why such discussions are not allowed on SB right now, and the OP wanted to change it. If the OP wanted to talk about the PSAI or TDI deep air programs, there would be no prohibition and no need for this thread at all.

What I think the point of this thread has turned into for me ... while this is currently a popular thread, and perhaps even "adult" recently; perhaps the best this topic deserves is a sticky in this forum. I have read a couple pretty helpful threads on this subject, but I doubt most look as hard as I did. So; in the sticky would be links to say, 3 or 4 old deep air threads (this may also be old by then).

:coffee:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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