more training

[Searcaigh]

With PADI, I believe AOW is a prerequisite to rescue. Perhaps that is not true with other agencies. As to AOW vs intro to tech, take next which course will be most applicable to the kind of diving you will be doing in the next year or so.
DivemasterDennis

It was when I did my Rescue many years ago

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Rescue, a tailored, custom, or butt kicking AOW geared towards you advancing on to tech, then Intro to Tech. And each class should have some rescue skills specific to the things you are doing built on the dives built in to it. I wrote my own AOW class in that vein. And added skill requirements for admission and exit. Ie it is possible to fail it. Got to try to do that, but you can.

Rescue skills are part of the OW class for some agencies. And it only makes sense to have some of these before taking any kind of advanced training. Often advanced training will give you access to dives and sites where one can get into trouble faster with more serious consequences.

And a good rescue class is as much about preventing a problem as it is dealing with one that has already occurred. So making divers wait or forcing them to take another class first is ridiculous. Complex navigation is not necessary to locate a missing diver, tow one to shore, start stripping their gear, surface an unconscious/nonresponsive diver, spot a bad gear set up, help a panicked diver at the surface, or begin CPR once you have them on shore.

It (Rescue) may also enable a diver to do the ultimate rescue of themselves and a buddy - make them aware enough of the limits they have and the real consequences of exceeding them and saying "ya know what? This dive is not a good idea" and going to home or to a movie instead.

And for SEI the DRAM Rescue course requires OW and ten dives post OW cert. So it's less expensive as well. No need to spend money on a course in between that may have zero interest for them. And for those divers who have no desire to do deep, night, or even Nav dives, and there are more than few of them, it allows them to still be able to save someone. Or themselves.

 

[grantwiscour]

+1 on Rescue Class. The GUE Fundies class would be beneficial also if you have someone locally available. Your LDS should have some specialties that are geared to the local diving conditions. If you are still working on proper weighting and buoyancy a Peak Performance Buoyancy class might be work looking into. Deep, Wreck, Nav, Night/Limited Viz and Nitrox are also good to have under your belt.

Check out the 5thD-X videos on youtube. They show some good skills that you can add to your own dive sessions that will help develop safety and trim.

 

[Diver0001]

It was when I did my Rescue many years ago

This keeps coming up so here is the current picture:

1) Certified OW divers are allowed to take the theory and the confined water portions of rescue.
2) You must be an Adventure diver in order to do the open water bits (the scenarios) and one of the completed adventure dives must be navigation.

R..

 

[robertarak]

UTD Essentials is another good class to take and doesn't require as much of a gear change (if I remember correctly).

HOWEVER, depending on what it is you think you need to learn, you just might want to take "diving lessons" -- NOT a class but lessons designed for you. IF you can find an instructor who is willing to work on this, do it -- you just might learn a LOT more than by taking a "standard" class. BTW, were I to do this, I'd want my instructor to have technical training (not necessarily BE a technical instructor but just have the training and someone who is doing technical dives at least occasionally).

Hmmm... where would the OP find a tech trained, independant instructor who could tailor such a class in the Los Angeles area?

 

[PfcAJ]

It's not upholding standards, it's a reflection of the format.

Why people wash out of fundies is because the course has a fixed time frame. The bar is high and some (if not most) people aren't able to get over the bar in the time allowed for it. In school (where the timeframe is also fixed) the student would be given a "grade" A, B, C+, C etc. but since GUE don't have any way to define various levels of success they have to go for the black-and-white of "you pass" or "you fail".

Normally, diving courses are performance based so time is a flexible element and there is no need to tell the student "you fail". You tell them "you need more time". If you wanted to do that with fundies it could be done but then you would have to define a skill set, ensure that the basics of the skill set were adequately introduced, that the bar was completely clear and then have regular evaluations of the student until the student passes, which is exactly how our IANTD instructor did things.

So I'll repeat my point. Upholding standards is making sure that the student reaches the bar. Copping out is when you say "you fail" because you either don't have the time or the inclination to keep working with that student until the bar is achieved. That's nice and easy for GUE.... set the bar nice and high, convince a bunch of people to spend a LOT of money on a course and then tell most of them "you fail" because they don't have the time to actually teach what they said you would learn. Easy money but a serious crock if you ask me.

I honestly think as an instructor that I could say "you fail" to someone. I would have to say "*I* fail".

R..

That's not entirely accurate.

GUE Fundamentals has 4 possible outcomes for the student that breakdown pretty much like this:
Tech Pass: Student has demonstrated all the Fundamentals level skills at a high level with doubles, lights, and maybe a drysuit.
Rec Pass: Student demonstrated the skills without doubles, lights, or a drysuit. Perhaps the student had a full technical kit, but didn't perform the skills at the tech pass standard. Student still passes the course and receives a card.
Provisional: Student needs more work on some things, and has up to 6 months to practice, work with the instructor, and be re-evaluated for a pass (tech or rec).
Fail: Student displays an unsafe attitude or will not be up to standard within 6 months time.

From the GUE website - "The time and fees associated with provisional upgrades are entirely at the discretion of the instructor, however HQ requires you to pay for course registration again if the time since the original course has exceeded 6 months."

I've NEVER seen a student fail Fundamentals unless they quit (which I've only heard of once). A Fail rating is very uncommon, and I don't think there's any pride in failing someone.

At the end of all GUE courses (I've taken 5 of them, btw), the instructor gives you a thorough debrief on what you did well and what needs improvement, no matter pass, fail, or provisional.

 

[Diver0001]

I've NEVER seen a student fail Fundamentals unless they quit (which I've only heard of once). A Fail rating is very uncommon, and I don't think there's any pride in failing someone.

Thanks for the clarification.

To me the provisional rating is a "delayed fail" unless the instructor is committed to actually getting the student to the bar.

That's the difference between how I understand this approach and what I've experienced with my IANTD training. In the IANTD training, the instructor was "all in" in making sure that the students either got to the bar or threw in the towel. That's a big difference from the approach of giving people a 2nd chance that may end in the same result, which is how I understand the meaning of provisional. The IANTD way shows commitment to delivering what has been sold.

I'm not saying that the course has no value, but I don't believe in "selling" something that you're not willing (or able) to deliver. They've set the bar very high in order to attract a certain type of diver to the course but in the process what's come out is that the bar is so high that few actually pass it outright. And to me, if the instructor isn't "all in" on getting the student to the bar then what they've done is create a course that *definitely* has some value (don't get me wrong) but doesn't deliver what it promises. And I do have a problem with that.

//

As an aside .....

During the one that I was able to observe, there were 6 students IIRC and none of them passed, 2 told me that they had no intention of coming back for re-testing (one of those because the instructor told him he had to stop smoking or he wouldn't pass) and the other 4 intended to be re-tested. Of those, based on what I saw, one had no chance of passing in 6 months unless she spent a LOT of time diving over the intervening months.

And while I'm at it, I wasn't very impressed by the instruction generally. One of the performance requirements was to be able to assemble the twin set independently. One of the students (the women I just mentioned who should have failed) put the wing on the backplate upside down and backwards on her first attempt. In a normal diving course, the instructor would have said, "That's wrong.... this is right.... this is how you can remember the right way for the next time.... ok now try it again....".

What this particular instructor told her was, and I quote, "You must FOOCUS!" Then he walked away and never did tell her what she did wrong. I helped her get it set up and told her how to avoid doing it wrong (as it were) the next time. To this day, that cute little line (You must FOOCUS) is a running joke with my regular dive buddy that we use if one of us does something stupid. LOL. IN addition, for some strange reason, he forbade the divers from doing any practice dives or "fun dives" between training sessions. I know for sure it wasn't their choice because I invited several of them to come diving with us and they told me that they weren't allowed. I mean, what instructor would show a student some skills and then forbid them from practicing those skills on their own time and ultimately give them a "non pass" for not having mastered the skills.... that's just weird. There are other examples as well and I'm sure it wasn't all bad but the instructor was *definitley* not what I was expecting from GUE. I was amazed.

R..

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Since the OP is from Culver City I would suggest looking at the LA County Advanced Diver Program. That is offered just once a year and is a longer class than you will find through a shop, but combines Advanced, Rescue and Nitrox. Nitrox was a recent addition and if that is important I would verify that it will be offered next year. ADP is definitely recreationally oriented and not tech so that is something you will not get.

 

[waterpirate]

The fundies model is a good one and I was aware of the provisional, but without prior team training you will not be able to convert in 6 months. I believe that led to the pre-fundies class to help with that. I believe in a time frame to pass the required material and if the student does not or can not get there in the time frame, I fail them. I do not take pleasure in it, and I do not see it as a failure on my part as the instructor either. What I do is pre-screen to make sure they are capeable, yet some still do not make it.

My time is valuble, how much time do I expend, or should I seek to get more money for my time? In todays world the student equates pay the money with get the prize, and there are far to many educators helping them achieve that level of D- performance.
Eric

 

[Diver0001]

I believe in a time frame to pass the required material and if the student does not or can not get there in the time frame, I fail them.

Well... If you have to work on a strict time-frame then pass/fail is the only realistic option but the bar also has to be realistic. It's impossible to have it both ways (performance based AND time based).

The issue I have with courses like DIR-F, like I said, is that the bar is quite simply set too high for the vast majority of people to reach it in the time frame. When you do that, it becomes unfair because you're selling something that you know you can't deliver in many (most) cases. That's like charging people to clean up the hard drive on their computer in an hour when you know it usually takes 2 hours and then telling most of them after an hour, "sorry, your computer is still a mess but I made a list of what still needs to be done...oh...and thanks for the money". If a business did that on a regular basis they'd be sued and/or word would get out that they were shifty and not to be trusted. GUE's only redeeming point in this respect is that the course evidently has enough added value that people don't think they got screwed even if the instructor fails to train them up to the bar that the advertisement told them they would be shooting for.

I think that's weird.

//

On another topic:

Coming back to something I said above, I have, I must admit, "failed" students as well but not because I was out of time, but because they didn't want to do the work. In one case, for example, I had a student for a drysuit specialty whose buoyancy control (even without the drysuit) was poor and with the drysuit it was clear that the prescribed number of dives wasn't going to get him up to speed. He needed focused work on his buoyancy control. Basically, he had problems that I had inherited because neither he nor his previous instructors had worked on his buoyancy control up to that point.

After the 2nd dive I made with him I told him that in order to get drysuit certified that his buoyancy control was going to need to improve. I told him that I would give him some guidance but that he was going to have to make a number of dives in the process that wouldn't fit in the course format. I offered to negotiate a good rental deal for the gear with the shop and I offered to meet with him every 4 weeks until his buoyancy control issues were sorted and then I could certify him. I also gave him the option (if he wanted to go faster) of taking a step back, doing a PPB specialty and some dives first and then picking up the drysuit specialty again after that. Either way it was going to take time and effort.

He refused. He more or less said that it was too much work and he'd rather just not have the card. He had the option but I had to fail him. There have been others like this as well. In all cases they were people who had been shuffled through the system by other instructors without fixing basic issues.

Another one I can remember was a guy who washed out of AOW because he was terrified of clearing his mask. I told him he needed extra time to focus on his mask issue before going further and just the thought of "having" to do more mask drills made him utterly refuse. I asked the shop to refund his money and told him he was welcome back when he was ready to do the work. He had the opportunity to get his mask issues sorted but opted out, which was beyond my control. We even had one wash out of DM class for the same reason. She couldn't clear her mask. I hate having to tell people these things but if you really focus on results then it can't be avoided.

The point being that, yes, I know that 'time frame' isn't the only reason you will have to fail the odd student. I just think that when time frame is the *main* reason why you're failing students that you're doing something wrong.

On the success side, I once had a student who I made about 40 dives with before certifying her. She had major stress issues and it was necessary for her to have a lot of time in the water. I even asked her to add meditation practice to her life for the general ability to live in the "here and now". She took it very seriously and not only got her c-card but made some really positive changes in her life generally in the process. I like to think of this as an example of what you can achieve with a focus on doing whatever it takes to get ta student to the bar. On the flip side of this you might think we lost a lot of money on this student but she paid for all that extra time. Money was not her problem, but she had a life long dream of learning how to dive and finding someone with the patience to look beyond the stress and teach her the way she needed it was difficult.

R..