Does my rig default me as a "Bad Buddy"?

[diversteve]

The Atomic swivels are considered extremely reliable. I've never heard of one failing. They're not the cheapest but you get what you pay for. Atomic Universal Comfort Swivel discounts on sale Atomic

Ever tried surfacing using only the Air2? Add to that the complication of a conscious/panicked/unconscious buddy - with/without the ability to control their bc venting also. It may not always be your GF either - one of my buddies has been blindsided twice by OOA divers. Both ripped her primary out of her mouth with no thought for her safety (fear of drowning does that to a person). Since you mentioned "groups", it's a possibility. Also my friend is a DM with a lot of experience as a "rescue dummy" so she knows how to control the situation.

Some people would find that to be too much task loading - others (like my buddy) not. My regular buddy dives with an AIR2 also now, I don't consider it an issue for me. But we very infrequently dive in groups even though much of our diving is off a boat or liveaboard.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

[QUOTE=Chaiyz;6558195]Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

As for when she'd need to buddy breathe, I know that OOA is supposed to be the only time but I'm a realist and she's newly certified. Moving my primary to a long hose seems like the simple solution but I've no experience with how it will change my profile and effect my trim etc.
The thought of having a long octo seems like a simple choice as I can definetly route an octo cable out of the way and keep it streamlined but I don't have an inflator for my BC and I'd still have the air2 and I'm not wanting to make people think I'm an idiot. I really don't care what it looks like personally, but I don't want to give that "idiot" signal in groups.

Please don't hold back, I'd like to know whatever you have to add to help me make a good decision.

Thanks,

chaiyz[/QUOTE]

How much do you love her? Simple question. Would you let her or one of your kids dive with another person with the same configuration? Personally I would not. The donated hose is too short. Period. Too easy to get pulled out of an already stressed diver's mouth leading to panic. That can lead to death. Take a look at the Hogarthian configuration. Octo, actually now known as the back up reg, on a short hose and bungeed around your neck. This is what you go to when you donate the primary. Then put the primary on a longer hose. A minimum of 40 inches routed under your arm which would require a 90 degree adapter or better yet a 5ft hose you'd bring down cleanly down the right side and then loop around your neck which would eliminate the need for the adapter. Then get rid of the AIR 2. Sell it, Ebay, Craigslist, etc. Or trade it to a shop for an standard inflator. A short one that will not flop around.

I like Grumpyoldguy's suggestion about swimming a few hundred feet side by side and then ascending while trying to use what you have now. It is one of the exercises in the Advanced Diver class I teach. I also have them do it with the donor having no mask. And with the OOA diver not having a mask. In addition to doing a horizontal air share from 90 feet facing each other then retrieving stage bottles and deploying them while still sharing air. Your current configuration would not work for that. And in fact I don't permit the use of AIR 2's without a standard octo as well.

Also consider an air share ascent from say 90 feet. You have one hand on your gf trying to keep her close enough to breathe off of that short hose. The other has to try and remove the AIR 2 from your mouth so you can vent air to prevent a runaway ascent. And have her do a surface rescue of you with your AIR 2. See if she has any trouble finding the buttons to inflate your BC while you simulate being unconscious. I have used this to help a few people ditch their integrated inflators for std octos. Not to mention that at service time you'll only need to take in your reg set. The BC can stay home.

The switch to a long hose will actually be more streamlined than what you have now. You can go to a shorter inflator that you'll not have to hold up when close to the bottom like your AIR 2. You won't have that big thing hanging down. You also will not need to make sure you take your LP hose with you if something happens to your reg and you would need to rent one. Rentals will not have that proprietary hose on them to use with your BC. Proprietary hoses are highly discouraged by me. I once had to rent a BC that had an AIR2 on it. I hated it. Felt like I was dragging an anchor and had to swap out the LP hose on my reg.

These are the guidelines I use for all classes when it comes to recommending gear and configuring my own:

1. Safe and Reliable
2. Comfortable and Well Fitting
3. Provide for adequate redundancy without being excessive.
4. Configured for self sufficiency and self rescue
5. Simple and Streamlined
6. All accessories and valves easily reachable
7. Allows for Buddy Assist and Rescue
8. Has a Low Drag Profile- Streamlined
9. Adaptable to the Divers Needs
10. Adaptable to the Diver’s Objective
11. All Equipment Identifiable by Touch and Location
12. Standardized with Fellow Divers Yet Versatile to Meet the Needs of the User
13. Equipment Placement is balanced and Instinctive
14. Any Changes have been made Gradually and with Careful Thought
15. Diver is open to Improvement to his/her Setup
16. All Cylinders are Properly Labeled with the Gas Mixture, MOD, and the Diver’s Name

You would need to look at your set up and evaluate it. See if it meets your definitions of these points. In my mind I would have serious concerns. Especially if using it with a newer diver. And your octo is also for you if something happens to your primary. I like that if it did I don't have to take that back up reg out of my mouth to vent the BC.

Finally, when you donate a long hose in the proper manner it says to the stressed diver "here's air, this reg works as I was just breathing on it as you saw. I going to help you, it will be ok". That is a clear psychological boost to a stressed diver. Fumbling around trying ot get close enough to allow someone to breathe off of that short hose, while trying locate your AIR 2 with someone pressed right up against you is not a situation I'd want to be in.

 

[flots am]

My current setup is a Scubapro Seahawk w/Air2. My primary 2nd is on a very short hose. My GF was recently certified and I'm realizing that my short lp hose is not ideal for buddy breathing.

So, how should I fix this.

By making sure that neither you or your buddy ever run out of air, and by following your OW training if you do.

With the possible exception of a couple of astonishingly rare failures (clogged dip tube and an exploding first stage), there is absolutely no legitimate reason for either you or your GF to ever run out of air.

However assuming someone was dumb enough to run out, the OOA diver gets to share air with the diver who isn't out of air, and ascend normally to the surface, holding her BC in your right hand. This works perfectly fine with your Air-2 and the hose that came with it. As long as you're holding on to her BC (as was taught in OW training), your standard first stage hose is long enough.

There is no reason to overly-complicate things on a no-deco Open-water dive and more or longer hoses isn't necessarily better.

flots.

 

[Chaiyz]

You all have solid points. Jim, I read then re-read your post and Amy did as well. As far as my air2, I carry a spare lp inflator hose in my save-a-dive. I've assended from 130 with my air2 with no issues. It does not feel bulk and I've wore an octo on a neclace before and had it freeflow causing me to loose a mask. My buddy dives with that setup and swears by it but I'm like the kid who ate the bad chicken,,.. only once will I go through that. Dumping while assending shouldn't require me touching my air2 at all, I'm using my right shoulder dump and lower dump if necessary and she has dove my rig and it is very simple to understand for her.
As I consider the options and realize that there is no fool proof "always right" scenario, I'm going with a 42" primary and Atomic swivel.

I will follow great advice and train with her on a long swim tto verify that it will keep stress levels to a minimum and I will post a pic when I get wet in a couple weeks. Much appreciation to all the divers that helped me come to my decision and I will keep it as safe as I possibly can.

BTW, I know everyone hates them but I'm buying a spare air for her as well. Better to have a limited amount of air than no air and it will give her time if we get separated so I can then donate and get her to the surface.

 

[chrpai]

If you want my opinion, you need a good mentor. I would find one, dive alot with him/her and then decide what new gear to purchase.

 

[purepursuit]

The idea of not handling your inflator unless you want to inflate/deflate your BC seems logical to me. Last thing you'd want is a panicked diver (or yourself) accidentally pressing down on your inflator and shooting you up to the surface. You'd have to take their air source back to sort out the now over inflated BC while the diver is probably freaking out about the rapid ascent and again not having a reg in their mouth.

 

[AaronRiot]

You all have solid points. Jim, I read then re-read your post and Amy did as well. As far as my air2, I carry a spare lp inflator hose in my save-a-dive. I've assended from 130 with my air2 with no issues. It does not feel bulk and I've wore an octo on a neclace before and had it freeflow causing me to loose a mask. My buddy dives with that setup and swears by it but I'm like the kid who ate the bad chicken,,.. only once will I go through that. Dumping while assending shouldn't require me touching my air2 at all, I'm using my right shoulder dump and lower dump if necessary and she has dove my rig and it is very simple to understand for her.
As I consider the options and realize that there is no fool proof "always right" scenario, I'm going with a 42" primary and Atomic swivel.

I will follow great advice and train with her on a long swim tto verify that it will keep stress levels to a minimum and I will post a pic when I get wet in a couple weeks. Much appreciation to all the divers that helped me come to my decision and I will keep it as safe as I possibly can.

BTW, I know everyone hates them but I'm buying a spare air for her as well. Better to have a limited amount of air than no air and it will give her time if we get separated so I can then donate and get her to the surface.

I would never let someone I love anywhere near a spare air. If you're that worried buy her a used reg and a pony. They're hated for good reason. Do some research.

 

[flots am]

The idea of not handling your inflator unless you want to inflate/deflate your BC seems logical to me. Last thing you'd want is a panicked diver (or yourself) accidentally pressing down on your inflator and shooting you up to the surface. You'd have to take their air source back to sort out the now over inflated BC while the diver is probably freaking out about the rapid ascent and again not having a reg in their mouth.

The Air-2 is never donated. The OOA diver would never have it.

flots.

 

[Chaiyz]

I would never let anyone but the wearer breathe from an Air2.

 

[flots am]

BTW, I know everyone hates them but I'm buying a spare air for her as well. Better to have a limited amount of air than no air and it will give her time if we get separated so I can then donate and get her to the surface.

It's just equipment. Nobody "hates" the Spare Air, they're simply inappropriate for SCUBA. They're awesome for their intended purpose, which is if you have to ditch your helicopter in the water.

With a 0.6 SAC rate (which is actually generous for someone who is unexpectedly out of air), it takes a little more than 8 CuFt to get to the surface from 80', assuming you take a minute to figure out what's going on, and do a 3 minute safety stop. This is 5 CuFt more than a SA holds and you'll have run out of air twice on the same dive, and still be quite a way down under water.

If you ascend immediately and blow off the safety stop, you'll have run out of air twice on the same dive somewhere around the half-way mark.

flots.