Diver Training: How much is enough?

[The Chairman]

 

[Peter Guy]

DCBC wrote

Putting a weak, poor, or non-swimmer into questionable water conditions makes no sense to me at all. "Why is that so difficult to comprehend?" If you think it does, I'll leave you to your "PADIland" fantacy.

Who says that a "weak, poor, or non-swimmer" can be certified in "questionable water conditions?" As long as the student does the various surface and sub-surface skills in a "comfortable, fluid and repeatable manner" why isn't that enough? DCBC, pray tell, how can a "weak, poor, or non-swimmer in questionable water conditions" perform all the surface and sub-surface skills in a "comfortable, fluid and repeatable manner?" It seems to me to be obvious that a "weak, poor, or non-swimmer" could NOT perform the surface and sub-surface skills in a "comfortable, fluid and repeatable manner" and thus would not have performed to standards and thus would not properly be certified.

ONLY IF an instructor refused to follow standards would a "weak, poor, or non-swimmer" pass.

 

[DCBC]

If the instructor issues the cert. because the minimum general OW course requirements have been met (let's say PADI or SSI is the course), and the instructor doesn't believe the student is ready for independent buddy pair diving in the local oceanic environment, then the instructor can educate the student about that, but the choice is the student's as to what to do.

The only way a Student should be able to meet "the minimum general OW course requirements" for certification, is that the Student "is ready for independent buddy pair diving in the local oceanic environment" (where the training is being conducted). If the Instructor doesn't believe the student is ready, they shouldn't be certified... Certification is the Instructor's choice, not the Student's.

If the certification Standard (what the diver must know and be able to physically do) is designed for ideal conditions; why would an instructor be prohibited from basing certification on all of the material the diver needs to know to dive safely where the training is being undertaken? I believe that the Standards either have to stipulate all requirements for certification, or specify minimum requirements and allow the Instructor to add what's necessary above those minimums.

A Certification Agency cannot reasonably be aware of what is minimally required to dive safely in every area. This is why I question the 'only one International Standard approach.' I believe that any Agency that sets such a low in-water performance Standard and prohibits an Instructor from requiring more (for harsher conditions) is in error. This isn't the direction the industry should be heading in imo and it certainly isn't in the best interests of the Student.

...I expect students should be certified when minimum standards are met, which should demonstrate that they are capable of diving safely somewhere (which may not be local) in the mainstream courses. If you specifically train for the local environment and not with agencies taking that approach, then of course your courses will run differently.

I think that most Agencies take the approach that the course content/Standard will change depending on where the training takes place. Diver's must be trained for the conditions in-which they will dive. I believe that's why the certification stipulates "in conditions the same or better than where the certification takes place."

---------- Post added January 28th, 2013 at 07:01 AM ----------

I just don't see this happening, not even on a small scale. It's a made up problem. Why do people keep bringing up these made up problems? Probably because there are no real problems to rant about.

Spoken like a fair-weather Diver... If you ran a course in the North Atlantic (normal conditions) and the Student only achieved minimal in-water ability (non-swimmer with a mask), they would be totally unsafe to dive imo. So much for "International Standards" that are based on ideal conditions. When the conditions are "not ideal," what a Diver requires to dive safely also changes.

---------- Post added January 28th, 2013 at 07:07 AM ----------

...ONLY IF an instructor refused to follow standards would a "weak, poor, or non-swimmer" pass.

So when the Student complains to the Agency, your going to tell them that the Student's lack of water ability prevented him from being "comfortable in the water." Even though the Student passed the Agencies in-water skills assessment? I'd love to be there during that conversation...

 

[BDSC]

I would like to go back to something I asked about on another thread, or maybe it was this thread as they seem to run together at times, and it's about performing a CESA during training.

We see the word "mastery" and the phrase "comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner" used so my question is for any instructors out there who care to answer. How many times are students asked to perform a verticle CESA during the open water training? I remember doing it once in our open water skills but that was over 20 years ago so it's possible I am mistaken. If an instructor is only requiring a student to do one verticle CESA during OW training, how can one conclude that the student has demonstrated "mastery" of the skill and performed it in a "repeatable" manner?

 

[DCBC]

How many times are students asked to perform a verticle CESA during the open water training?...how can one conclude that the student has demonstrated "mastery" of the skill and performed it in a "repeatable" manner?

I'm sure different Instructors approach CESA differently. Some Agencies don't require it and others do. What is required may vary between Agencies and in some cases from one Instructor to another.

I teach my students that CESA should never be required and is a last resort. The underwater World being what it is, a Diver may find themselves in a situation where a successful emergency ascent can make the difference to survival. CESA is a skill and like all skills, it needs to be practiced if it's to be a viable option.

Every dive requires an ascent. I recommend that the diver undertake a CESA (regulator in the mouth) on each ascent as a matter of routine. A Diver has to ascend anyway and why by-pass any opportunity to practice a skill? They have their regs in their mouths and can take a breath anytime they want to, so why not? I stress ascent rate and although in a real emergency they may choose to exceed the recommended limit, practice will increase their confidence and they will come to have a better handle of their limitations.

In training, I do CESA with full equipment in the pool before the OW. In OW, the CESA is done in 60 FSW to the safety stop. For me, the key aspect of this exercise is buoyancy control (speed of ascent) rather than if they need to sneak a breath (which may be available to them anyway in an emergency). The aim of this exercise for me, is to ensure that the Student possesses the necessary building blocks to know what is required. Once they've demonstrated a solid base of knowledge/skill they meet the requirement. I have yet to have a Student be unsuccessful on his/her first attempt.

 

[The Chairman]

Spoken like a fair-weather Diver... If you ran a course in the North Atlantic (normal conditions) and the Student only achieved minimal in-water ability (non-swimmer with a mask), they would be totally unsafe to dive imo. So much for "International Standards" that are based on ideal conditions. When the conditions are "not ideal," what a Diver requires to dive safely also changes.

This is a made up problem. People who are uncomfortable in the water are simply not seeking Scuba instruction. I've never had a student ask to learn how to dive who could not swim and swim well. I can only remember hearing about one instructor who had such a student and they washed out when they had to flood their mask. I guess you could say that the certification allow monkeys to get certified. In debate this is called a misleading vividness where a small or non-existent problem is made out to be significant. Add the glib put down, "Spoken like a..." to lend an air of superiority to your words. It's nothing but Shenanigans.

That being said, I am in the middle of learning adaptive scuba. I got to dive as a quadriplegic where the only thing I was able to do was to move my head. Talk about being a non-swimmer!

 

[ucfdiver]

This is a made up problem. People who are uncomfortable in the water are simply not seeking Scuba instruction. I've never had a student ask to learn how to dive who could not swim and swim well. I can only remember hearing about one instructor who had such a student and they washed out when they had to flood their mask. I guess you could say that the certification allow monkeys to get certified. In debate this is called a misleading vividness where a small or non-existent problem is made out to be significant. Add the glib put down, "Spoken like a..." to lend an air of superiority to your words. It's nothing but Shenanigans.

That being said, I am in the middle of learning adaptive scuba. I got to dive as a quadriplegic where the only thing I was able to do was to move my head. Talk about being a non-swimmer!

My OW instructor (who was president of the NACD at that time) told a story where he had one of his students who wasn't even comfortable with her face in the water. She later became a cave diver after taking it really slow due to her fear of water. Aside from this, everyone I know who wants to scuba dive has been a strong swimmer.

 

[BDSC]

This is a made up problem..................... In debate this is called a misleading vividness where a small or non-existent problem is made out to be significant.

Kinda like this?

If you dive like a yo-yo during class, then you are teaching your students to dive like yo-yos. You can dance around it all you want and justify it any way that you can, but you're teaching your students that being a yo-yo is quite OK because YOU do it.

 

[The Chairman]

Kinda like this?

Nothing like it at all. I actually see yo-yo divers here in the Keys all the time. I also see instructors instilling this bad habit into their students among others. I am sad that you promote this kind of diving. I would have thought that with all your bravado that your standards would be a bit higher.

At least you admit, albeit indirectly, that this is a made up problem.

 

[Peter Guy]

DCBC (sarcastically?) asked

So when the Student complains to the Agency, your going to tell them that the Student's lack of water ability prevented him from being "comfortable in the water."

I guess I don't understand the question.

IF one of my students can not "comfortably, fluidly and repeatedly" do the various sub-surface and surface skills, the student will be offered the opportunity to continue working with me (probably for more money since it does require more time) until the student CAN do the skills "comfortably, fluidly and repeatedly" in the environment in which I teach (cold, dark, tidal salt water).

I have yet to have a student complain to PADI. Those that haven't gotten certified have, in fact, thanked me for being honest with them. Others have taken a little more time and gone on. I have had one student complain online and he got knocked down and told that since he couldn't do the skills, he shouldn't have gotten certified.

DCBC, what's your problem with holding people to the standards of the agency?

Even "down south" in Nova Scotia, wouldn't you certify a student if she could comfortably, fluidly and repeatedly do all of the surface and sub-surface skills?