Nitrox card required to dive, not just for fills?
- Thread starter JahJahwarrior
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I think the problem with liability is that people don't fully understand what they are responsible for and how to protect themselves. As such, some tend to be overly careful...to the point of being a little absurd.
cbm32
Contributor
Hmmmm, a few random thoughts.
Any time I am required to take a course to do something and a card is issued I expect someone sometime may want to see the card. Otherwise just give me a piece of paper to hang on the wall or stuff in a drawer.
Allowing you to check into a hotel or motel is not taking money to put you in an environment in which you can reasonably expect to be in any danger, while taking you to a dive site and letting you jump in certainly exposes you to some level of danger (ok maybe there are SOME motels in which your life may be in jeopardy but hopefully those are few and far between).
Once you produce your Nitrox card the operator knows that you are educated as to not only how to dive nitrox but also how to test your tank and that you know you are expected to check every tank (ok most people dont do that but at least the provider can fall back on the fact that you were educated as to the risk of not doing so).
The limits of an operators liability actually extend to just what the judge and or jury find them to be. No real way of knowing for sure until the verdict is read. So if you own a business you are wise to protect yourself in any and every way you can.
In my opinion, nitrox certification could be done in about five minutes or less. Hand me a 3X5 card with the basics on it and show me how to analyze the gas in a tank.
I got my nitrox cert on my last dive trip and just planned on always having it with me when I plan to dive...just like my OW, or now, my AOW card. Again, they issue cards so that you can take them with you and show them to people....so dont be surprised when asked to do so. After all, if you get pulled over and dont have your drivers license the cop isnt going to accept, "well I have a car, doesnt that prove I have a license?". Just like having a tank with Nitrox in it doesnt mean you have a cert card to dive it.
Any time I am required to take a course to do something and a card is issued I expect someone sometime may want to see the card. Otherwise just give me a piece of paper to hang on the wall or stuff in a drawer.
Allowing you to check into a hotel or motel is not taking money to put you in an environment in which you can reasonably expect to be in any danger, while taking you to a dive site and letting you jump in certainly exposes you to some level of danger (ok maybe there are SOME motels in which your life may be in jeopardy but hopefully those are few and far between).
Once you produce your Nitrox card the operator knows that you are educated as to not only how to dive nitrox but also how to test your tank and that you know you are expected to check every tank (ok most people dont do that but at least the provider can fall back on the fact that you were educated as to the risk of not doing so).
The limits of an operators liability actually extend to just what the judge and or jury find them to be. No real way of knowing for sure until the verdict is read. So if you own a business you are wise to protect yourself in any and every way you can.
In my opinion, nitrox certification could be done in about five minutes or less. Hand me a 3X5 card with the basics on it and show me how to analyze the gas in a tank.
I got my nitrox cert on my last dive trip and just planned on always having it with me when I plan to dive...just like my OW, or now, my AOW card. Again, they issue cards so that you can take them with you and show them to people....so dont be surprised when asked to do so. After all, if you get pulled over and dont have your drivers license the cop isnt going to accept, "well I have a car, doesnt that prove I have a license?". Just like having a tank with Nitrox in it doesnt mean you have a cert card to dive it.
I deal with insurance for motorsports events as an organizer. One of the thing that we're hearing from our risk management folks (the ones who negotiate our rates with the insurance carriers, and decide what my responsibilities are as an organizer) is that by being "too involved" in things, we actually open ourselves up for more liability. Once we make rules, now we have to follow them - if I ask a driver to use a certain type of safety gear, or perform a "safety inspection" on his car in order to participate, and something goes wrong, it can come back to bite us in the ass.
In this situation, if the boat driver starts playing Scuba police under the guise of insurance, it's possible that they could be making it harder on themselves down the road. They've inserted themselves into a decision making process that should be up to the diver, and when someone becomes the "victim" they're going to want to try and hold someone else responsible. Even if they did nothing wrong, it's an opening for an attorney to try and establish responsibility where otherwise there may have been none. IANAL, but to me it seems like the guy driving the boat should stick to driving the boat and let the divers worry about diving.
In this situation, if the boat driver starts playing Scuba police under the guise of insurance, it's possible that they could be making it harder on themselves down the road. They've inserted themselves into a decision making process that should be up to the diver, and when someone becomes the "victim" they're going to want to try and hold someone else responsible. Even if they did nothing wrong, it's an opening for an attorney to try and establish responsibility where otherwise there may have been none. IANAL, but to me it seems like the guy driving the boat should stick to driving the boat and let the divers worry about diving.
But it comes to a point where how many cards do I want to carry. Nitrox? Nah. Even though PADI sent me two of them when I took the class so I'm good to 80%!
I carry my NAUI Helitrox, CMAS Instructor, SEI Instructor, and TDI Instructor cards in my wallet. Under CMAS, SEI, and TDI I can teach a nitrox class. Should I also have to carry the diver card for it?
Don't think so. If necessary I'll ask for a Helitrox mix but leave the Helium out. I have a little Vault case made to hold the old style cell phone. It also has all of my cards in it. I think what 15 or 20 now since SDI/TDI issues me a new Instructor card for each Specialty. It's why I like the SEI card. One card for every specialty I can teach is covered in one shot.
I carry my NAUI Helitrox, CMAS Instructor, SEI Instructor, and TDI Instructor cards in my wallet. Under CMAS, SEI, and TDI I can teach a nitrox class. Should I also have to carry the diver card for it?
Don't think so. If necessary I'll ask for a Helitrox mix but leave the Helium out. I have a little Vault case made to hold the old style cell phone. It also has all of my cards in it. I think what 15 or 20 now since SDI/TDI issues me a new Instructor card for each Specialty. It's why I like the SEI card. One card for every specialty I can teach is covered in one shot.
OP
I see two points here that I think I covered before but people are discussing it still.
First, business policy. It's common knowledge that you need at least an open water card to dive so shops don't normally tell you to bring it. However, if they have other required info, they should tell you what it is so you bring it. They were fully prepared to make me waste an hour of my time, but not willing to take 5 seconds to tell us on the phone of the requirement.
I do think it is highly unusual to require a nitrox card. Granted, I've only been doing this for 7 years. I've dove lots of places, boats and gone to lots of shops in multiple continents--but I have never had to show a nitrox card. Even for a fill. It literally is a card I have never shown to a single operator, tank monkey, or clerk. Never.
What is more common is to ask for an AOW card, and my DM card covers that.
The shop told me "it's Sunday morning no agencies are open so try to look it up yourself or go home and get it." Not exactly helpful.
The second point is, why not carry it? Simplest answer is between myself, significant other and friends, we take different cars from time to time. I keep with me only the two cards that I have ever needed: DM and full cave. Like I said, I've never needed anything else, so why carry it? I keep them in my wallet, a very handy place. I keep my wallet in my pocket, so I try to keep it slim. Credit card, ID, insurance for car and diving...it adds up. I have a pile of cards, I couldn't carry them all. And, I have never been one to take a logbook with me. I call before I to to places and if they don't tel me to then I don't bring it. Same reason I don't take my drysuit and my wetsuit...at some point it gets ridiculous.
I do keep photos of cards in my phone, but apparently that one never made it in there-my fault but again--6 years, the card has never been shown to anyone. Funny thing is, I had it in the car after all.
Really it's quite simple: the shop didnt tell me what they wanted, I brought what 7 years of diving has shown me is typically needed, and the shop treated me like the idiot. I won't go back to a dive shop that scolds me for not doing something I was not told to do.
I won't go back to the shop that couldn't figure out how to fill doubles, or the shop that requires students to buy $7 mouthpieces for rental regs. Now I have 3 shops I won't go to. I'm sure all 3 have loyal customers, and I'm sure they will all do just fine without me, and I'm ok with that. I'm not vindictive, I just only give what little money I do give to shops that treat me awesome and go above and beyond to please me. For example, Divers Direct. I had a small annoying experience with them years ago where they refused to fill a tank because it was too big for their little bomb shelter. I gave a different location some small business-a few tank fills-this year. Apparently I forgot to make it clear I wanted nitrox. They immediately fixed it without complaining at all, accepted my MOD stickers as proof they were nitrox tanks, didnt complain about the VIP stickers being on the bottom of the tanks, and didnt hassle me about a nitrox card, plus the tanks were filled to 3200psi when relatively room temperature. Then they gave me info on a local dive site and what competitor of theirs was closest to that site and could help me if I needed more details. I'm impressed enough that now I've been getting more and more fills from them. Still not as good service as you get in cave country, but they served me as if I were the most important person in the building at the moment.
I will get the nitrox card into my phone, but I still don't see why it was needed, and their customer service, while far from abysmal, did not warrant a repeat visit. If others are happy there then by all means it might be a nice place. They had a wide selection of masks and fins and spearguns and stuff, very well stocked and organized. It was a nice operation until they started enforcing poorly thought out and communicated rules that are far from the standard in diving.
First, business policy. It's common knowledge that you need at least an open water card to dive so shops don't normally tell you to bring it. However, if they have other required info, they should tell you what it is so you bring it. They were fully prepared to make me waste an hour of my time, but not willing to take 5 seconds to tell us on the phone of the requirement.
I do think it is highly unusual to require a nitrox card. Granted, I've only been doing this for 7 years. I've dove lots of places, boats and gone to lots of shops in multiple continents--but I have never had to show a nitrox card. Even for a fill. It literally is a card I have never shown to a single operator, tank monkey, or clerk. Never.
What is more common is to ask for an AOW card, and my DM card covers that.
The shop told me "it's Sunday morning no agencies are open so try to look it up yourself or go home and get it." Not exactly helpful.
The second point is, why not carry it? Simplest answer is between myself, significant other and friends, we take different cars from time to time. I keep with me only the two cards that I have ever needed: DM and full cave. Like I said, I've never needed anything else, so why carry it? I keep them in my wallet, a very handy place. I keep my wallet in my pocket, so I try to keep it slim. Credit card, ID, insurance for car and diving...it adds up. I have a pile of cards, I couldn't carry them all. And, I have never been one to take a logbook with me. I call before I to to places and if they don't tel me to then I don't bring it. Same reason I don't take my drysuit and my wetsuit...at some point it gets ridiculous.
I do keep photos of cards in my phone, but apparently that one never made it in there-my fault but again--6 years, the card has never been shown to anyone. Funny thing is, I had it in the car after all.
Really it's quite simple: the shop didnt tell me what they wanted, I brought what 7 years of diving has shown me is typically needed, and the shop treated me like the idiot. I won't go back to a dive shop that scolds me for not doing something I was not told to do.
I won't go back to the shop that couldn't figure out how to fill doubles, or the shop that requires students to buy $7 mouthpieces for rental regs. Now I have 3 shops I won't go to. I'm sure all 3 have loyal customers, and I'm sure they will all do just fine without me, and I'm ok with that. I'm not vindictive, I just only give what little money I do give to shops that treat me awesome and go above and beyond to please me. For example, Divers Direct. I had a small annoying experience with them years ago where they refused to fill a tank because it was too big for their little bomb shelter. I gave a different location some small business-a few tank fills-this year. Apparently I forgot to make it clear I wanted nitrox. They immediately fixed it without complaining at all, accepted my MOD stickers as proof they were nitrox tanks, didnt complain about the VIP stickers being on the bottom of the tanks, and didnt hassle me about a nitrox card, plus the tanks were filled to 3200psi when relatively room temperature. Then they gave me info on a local dive site and what competitor of theirs was closest to that site and could help me if I needed more details. I'm impressed enough that now I've been getting more and more fills from them. Still not as good service as you get in cave country, but they served me as if I were the most important person in the building at the moment.
I will get the nitrox card into my phone, but I still don't see why it was needed, and their customer service, while far from abysmal, did not warrant a repeat visit. If others are happy there then by all means it might be a nice place. They had a wide selection of masks and fins and spearguns and stuff, very well stocked and organized. It was a nice operation until they started enforcing poorly thought out and communicated rules that are far from the standard in diving.
Wait til they ask for your boat diver card!
grantwiscour
Contributor
Most of my certs are with SSI. They have an app that stores all c-cards on your phone. Nice and handy and no extra charge.
I wouldn't say it is FAR from the standard. There are dive operations all over the place that ask for a nitrox card if you are diving nitrox on their boat . The fact is that there are people around that dive and have no formal training. Formal training is not a "real" requirement. But at the same time don't expect a dive boat to take you out diving just because you have money and a fancy set of dive gear.
I dove uncertified for YEARS. All from my own boat, and I knew that if I wanted to dive on a charter that they would ask me for a card. No nitrox course for any agency that I can think of states that when you have completed the course that you are qualified to get your tanks filled. They state that you will be qualified to conduct dives using enriched air up to 40% O2.
These shops are well within their rights to ask you for a nitrox card if you will be diving it from their vessel. Just the same as if you show up with trimix and want to use it on their vessel.
I dove uncertified for YEARS. All from my own boat, and I knew that if I wanted to dive on a charter that they would ask me for a card. No nitrox course for any agency that I can think of states that when you have completed the course that you are qualified to get your tanks filled. They state that you will be qualified to conduct dives using enriched air up to 40% O2.
These shops are well within their rights to ask you for a nitrox card if you will be diving it from their vessel. Just the same as if you show up with trimix and want to use it on their vessel.
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