Should we get pony bottles?

[diverrex]

i don't think this can be right. you must be short changing yourself. my 6cf bottle lasts 6 or 7 minutes at 15 to 20 feet.

Of course it wasn't right. Using the same logic he'd only be able to dive less than 30 minutes with an 80 at 15 feet.

Maybe he meant it was no problem doing 10 minutes at 15 on his 30 without saying how much he would still have left.

 

[rick00001967]

sorry.....i honestly wasn't trying to be smart ass. just thought i would point out a possible error.

 

[phoenix31tt]

TBH guys, I dont think the risk of going OOA is a problem... we're pretty meticulous on that...

Remember I said my thought for having a pony is for redundancy in case of equipment failure not OOA or extra gas just in case etc, that's why alot of people suggested doubles...
I guess a more pertinent question would be what are the odds of having a reg/tank failure and being away from my buddy?

Additionally, we did practice cesa's in training, from only 30ft though

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[Steve_C]

Standard dive protocol (by the book, guys. Calm down) is to look around for a minute then head for the surface.

If you get separated, meet up at the big air tank in the sky. I don't really see why you need to invest in a 2nd reg and tank (and all the associated maintenance and hassle, even if minimal) for 60 seconds of what should be rare separation.

SOP is a nice bit of theory that works well say in our local quarry or on a shallow reef dive in the Keys where I do use it when needed. Actually use less for buddy separation then for navigational bearings. Now if I am in NC , 80 or more feet down on a wreck with some surface current and we are not right near the anchor line. Maybe viz is good, maybe it is not. i look at a big sand tiger swimming by, look back and my buddy has disappeared. I look up and do not see anybody going skyward. The protocol is not to do an open water ascent and wind up drifting off creating problems for myself and the crew unless I see my buddy doing a free ascent for some reason in which case I will safely follow. If you came back down you would not find the wreck anyway. Your dive is over. The SOP is if you get separated to wait in the immediate area for a minute or two, maybe go up slightly and look around and up, and then meet back at the anchor line. If they do get separated they will usually just follow another diver who looks like they know where they are going.

Separations happen. Had a buddy disappear once because as we went around a corner he saw a pair of yellow fins coming back over him and he spun around and followed them off. Just not my yellow fins. Caught up with him at the anchor line.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

TBH guys, I dont think the risk of going OOA is a problem... we're pretty meticulous on that...

Remember I said my thought for having a pony is for redundancy in case of equipment failure not OOA or extra gas just in case etc, that's why alot of people suggested doubles...
I guess a more pertinent question would be what are the odds of having a reg/tank failure and being away from my buddy?

Additionally, we did practice cesa's in training, from only 30ft though

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

You are a photographer. Your attention is going to be diverted from your wife for 30 seconds or more. I think the question is... would you feel more comfortable if SHE was wearing a pony bottle? Is it worth the cost, the drag and the weight? Those are more important than trying to guess the probability of failure. That is how I look at it.

But if you are going to consider probabilities.. You also have to consider what the probability of a hose to blow, an o-ring to extrude, water in the tank to block the dip tube, the probability of a first stage failure, the probability of a free flow at the end of a dive, the probability of an SPG breaking or getting way out of calibration, the probability that someone exceeds the no-deco limit in an emergency and needs the air. the probability that someone jumps in with the tank off (or swims down 50 ft with it off), the probablity that some strong male that happens to be diving in your vicinity mugs her at the end of the dive and is huffing like a steam engine, the probability that you two go through a small short, single file restriction and she has a failure....any other scenarios? Wanna know how many I have personally seen? Answer: Most of them, some more than once.

I think people are crazy spending $700 or more for some fancy asss air integrated computer with a remote sensor and are too cheap to drop $325 for a small pony... My kid wears a 6 cu-ft bottle and it gives me SIGNIFICANT peace of mind..

 

[DaleC]

But hey, if you wanna drag extra stuff along rather than focusing on basic dive skills, go nuts.

...and that's why I see so many XXX men doing simple rec dives with doubles and canlights

 

[Steve_C]

...and that's why I see so many XXX men doing simple rec dives with doubles and canlights

I don't use can lights or doubles but have a number of buddies who do. Their philosophy is that the more time they spend in their "serious dive" gear the more comfortable they will be with it on those serious dives, which they do a lot of. So they essentially always dive the same configuration.

 

[Michael Guerrero]

TBH guys, I dont think the risk of going OOA is a problem... we're pretty meticulous on that...

Remember I said my thought for having a pony is for redundancy in case of equipment failure not OOA or extra gas just in case etc, that's why alot of people suggested doubles...
I guess a more pertinent question would be what are the odds of having a reg/tank failure and being away from my buddy?

I think you're taking the right approach in deciding whether to use a pony. I think the question you should be asking is, in the event you have an equipment failure, are you willing to risk your life on being able to get to your buddy and that they will have enough gas to get both of you to the surface safely?

The odds of you being away from your buddy depend entirely on your diving habits as a team and what circumstances you might encounter (currents--up, down, or sideways, zero vis, distraction, etc.). If you sufficiently restrict your diving with respect to conditions, depth, gas management, and proximity to each other, maybe you don't need a pony. And it could certainly be argued that these are goals for which you should strive.

But it's about whether you think you are sufficiently mitigating potential hazards, and if not, how to do so. The fact that you are even posting this question tells me you think maybe not. If I had doubts, I would address the areas of my diving with my team that give me pause (that's the whole "fix your diving skills" line). If you enjoy the way you currently dive with your buddy, but would like some redundancy for piece of mind, $250 or $300 seems like a small price.

 

[PfcAJ]

SOP is a nice bit of theory that works well say in our local quarry or on a shallow reef dive in the Keys where I do use it when needed. Actually use less for buddy separation then for navigational bearings. Now if I am in NC , 80 or more feet down on a wreck with some surface current and we are not right near the anchor line. Maybe viz is good, maybe it is not. i look at a big sand tiger swimming by, look back and my buddy has disappeared. I look up and do not see anybody going skyward. The protocol is not to do an open water ascent and wind up drifting off creating problems for myself and the crew unless I see my buddy doing a free ascent for some reason in which case I will safely follow. If you came back down you would not find the wreck anyway. Your dive is over. The SOP is if you get separated to wait in the immediate area for a minute or two, maybe go up slightly and look around and up, and then meet back at the anchor line. If they do get separated they will usually just follow another diver who looks like they know where they are going.

Separations happen. Had a buddy disappear once because as we went around a corner he saw a pair of yellow fins coming back over him and he spun around and followed them off. Just not my yellow fins. Caught up with him at the anchor line.

That's a fair plan. Look around, go back to the anchor line. If both of you guys follow the plan, I think total separation time would still be in the range of a few minutes. Even on a fairly large wreck, it doesn't take a bunch of time to get from one side to the other. I certainly don't suggest a blue water ascent in a current and 'hope for the best'. I do, however, suggest having reasonable buddy skills if undertaking a dive that involves the need to return to the anchor, current, depth, and reduced visibility.

...and that's why I see so many XXX men doing simple rec dives with doubles and canlights

Hey, don't look at me! I am wont to take a scout light, but on 9/10 OW dives I leave the big one at the house!

 

[je76]

@PfcAJ, Most of your retorts are generalizations or ad absurdum type or arguments that work when diving in a quarry or something similar. Not advisable for ocean diving.

Consider this scenario with my local diving. I am diving at 90' on a wreck in NJ. There is some current and visibility is about 10'... not too bad for a day in the North Atlantic. I am around 300' from the down line fishing out of the current on the wreck with my teammate when I realize we are separated. I look for around 1-2 minutes and decide further searching is not advisable.

Do I now do a free ascent in low visibility 300' feet from the boat or do I travel back to the up-line and do my ascent there.

If I choose the former I could be on the surface in around 2-3 minutes but who knows where I will surface? Maybe 300' or further from the boat, not including if a current pushes me and what the seas are doing. The boat can't just pull anchor and come get me with other divers in the water. I most certainly will not locate my buddy on the surface if the seas are anything but flat calm.

I personally have seen people decide to do this and be swept 500-1000 feet from the boat quickly and requiring rescue from the Coast Guard. They inflated their SMB, they blew their whistle but to no avail.

If I choose the latter option, without a pony, I now have a travel time of 6-10 minutes with no redundancy. Maybe nothing happens but as the adage goes, Nothing Happens Til It Happens. A pony package all in is around $350.00, tank, reg and rigging. My life is worth $350.00...I just decided not to buy coffee at the office this year, I'll bring it from home.

---------- Post added October 30th, 2013 at 11:34 PM ----------

Absolutely agree here Steve. The more time I spend in my tek gear the more familiar with it I will become. After a few hundred dives now I can find things without even having to think about it...muscle memory! In an emergency it can save your life.

I have heard Dale's, "Why you wearing all that gear, we're only going 70'". My retort is always, "You worry about you and your teammate and I will worry about me and mine."

Same goes with my pony. I dive it whether I am at 40', 80' or 140' (albeit a bigger size). As we have seen from Accidents and Incidents, you drown just as easily in 15 feet as you do at 150'.