Innovation in diving

[steady1570]

One specific point….

… at 12 meter average depth following that profile with the limited supply of gas I have on N32 I cannot enter into a deco situation…

Without an accurate bottom timer you are guessing that you were at 12m average depth. You said you went to at least 18m at one point; if you spent significant time at that depth for whatever reason (and however unlikely it is that you wouldn’t have just cut and run or whatever), with the figures you yourself gave for SAC etc and 18m average depth you could have entered into deco.

Depth gauge you can maybe argue isn’t necessary, but you need a bottom timer.

I know this example is right out there in the realms of possibility, and there are a lot of bad decisions that you would have to make for it to be pertinent, but you are claiming that there is no risk in not having a BT… and that’s not true. Is this not then a case of where you broke the rules in a very calculated way. Admitting that you did that is not (in my mind at least) a sign of weakness but more a reflection of the reality that we all face in choosing to dive in sub-optimal conditions? Quite open ended and hypothetical, but perhaps a discussion along these lines might rescue this thread?

Mark

 

[gianaameri]

One specific point….



Without an accurate bottom timer you are guessing that you were at 12m average depth. You said you went to at least 18m at one point; if you spent significant time at that depth for whatever reason (and however unlikely it is that you wouldn’t have just cut and run or whatever), with the figures you yourself gave for SAC etc and 18m average depth you could have entered into deco.

Depth gauge you can maybe argue isn’t necessary, but you need a bottom timer.

I know this example is right out there in the realms of possibility, and there are a lot of bad decisions that you would have to make for it to be pertinent, but you are claiming that there is no risk in not having a BT… and that’s not true. Is this not then a case of where you broke the rules in a very calculated way. Admitting that you did that is not (in my mind at least) a sign of weakness but more a reflection of the reality that we all face in choosing to dive in sub-optimal conditions? Quite open ended and hypothetical, but perhaps a discussion along these lines might rescue this thread?

Mark

I have done that dive/run many times and the average depth is 12 meters (so says the Dive Computer).

Indeed, if I were to stop an inordinate amount of time at 18 meters, as opposed as run the length of the line, my average depth would have progressively become greater, the longer I stayed at 18 meters.

The dive was planned though as a continuous dive with no stops just following the line and I would have needed maybe 100 minutes (off the top of my head) at 18 meters to enter a deco situation on N32 (when I spent at that depth just a few minutes...).

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I have done that dive/run many times and the average depth is 12 meters (so says the Dive Computer).

Indeed, if I were to stop an inordinate amount of time at 18 meters, as opposed as run the length of the line, my average depth would have progressively become greater, the longer I stayed at 18 meters.

The dive was planned though as a continuous dive with no stops just following the line and I would have needed maybe 100 minutes (off the top of my head) at 18 meters to enter a deco situation on N32 (when I spent at that depth just a few minutes...).






www.rebreathermallorca.com - Just as equipment is not an acceptable substitute for appropriate skill and experience, skill and experience are not an acceptable substitute for appropriate equipment. Plan all diving so that it can be completed safely without the action or inaction of a fellow diver."

 

[nimoh]

you are forgetting that a bottom timer is appropriate and not appropriate, so the clown picture applies and doesn't apply

 

[gianaameri]

You look very nice... definitely you!

 

[TONY CHANEY]

You have done everything except addressing the core issue.

A Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is a measuring device. It tells you time and depth. From that, either by way of using tables (i.e. Mvplan, Vplanner...) or the Deco functions of the dive computer, you can plan a safe ascent.

It is essential 99.999% of the times (i.e. where you do not know the depth, and where you do not know the profile you will be running...).

In a cave there is a line which defines the profile you will be diving. The cave has been surveyed and mapped and the depth and distances are known waypoint to waypoint. These can be verified to be correct by the use of a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (and other useful tools).

Distances are given by a cave survey line pre-marked at the surface at 5 meter intervals. When marking the line, the line is set taught between two point 5 meter distant one from the other, so that any stretch or give inherent in the line is taken into account.

So, I know depth at the various waypoints, and I know distance between the waypoints, and I have done that dive more than 400 times (with Dive Computer/Bottom Timer), and at 12 meter average depth following that profile with the limited supply of gas I have on N32 I cannot enter into a deco situation (including if I make an intermediate ascent to visually explore a dry chamber as I did that dive, that day).

What risk exactly have I incurred in that specific dive on that specific day by not having a Dive computer/Bottom Timer?

What could have a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer done to help in an emergency, and which emergency exactly?
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---------- Post added January 24th, 2014 at 01:54 AM ----------



Yep, on that day and that dive broke Scuba 101 rule (full admission, and no shame or fear to say, no tears and no regrets either), but it did not add risk to my specific dive on that specific day (if it did, happy to learn exactly how).

On the other end, there are many many divers and instructors who do not walk the talk and do break rules all the times and this puts them and the dive team at risk, and sometimes people die too (and when this happens it is all kept as quiet as possible).

Sometimes these same instructors end up dead too.

I broke a rule on that day and on that dive and can explain and defend why (i.e. substance over form, as opposed as form over substance). It is possible I made an error of judgement on that day in my risk assessment for that dive (a calculated risk), but thus far not one person has been able to tell me exactly what risk I have incurred on that dive on that day by not having a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (again no chance I could have gone in deco).

Divers and instructors regularly break rules and doing so increases risk for them and possibly others (they just do not talk about it because they have something to hide...).

OK let's begin.

1) I have stated from the start the importance of a bottom timer and depth gauge. Without either you really have no idea as to your diving profile. OBTW, computer are not just for ascertaining a safe your ascent. they are also used to tell you about MOD of the gas you breath, max depth, etc.

2) Everything that you have postedf about knowing the lines, depth, distance are pure BS. there is no cave that I have ever dove has lines that are marked to that degree. What makes it worse is that you entered to a section you have never been to before, so therefore you really had no idea of depth and distance.

3) You stated that a computer / depth gauge / timers is essential 99.999% of the time but you chose not to dive with any of them. So your dive falls into a 00.001% of all dives that you have ever dived? BS.

4) You stated, "Distances are given by a cave survey line pre-marked at the surface at 5 meter intervals. When marking the line, the line is set taught between two point 5 meter distant one from the other, so that any stretch or give inherent in the line is taken into account. So as we fellow diver know that when wet material streches like webbing. So you actually took the time to wet the line and then applied the markings? BS.

5) Thanks for using my words, "scuba 101." You eariler stated that it is different in caves than openwater and scuba 101 rules do not apply. I said and still do say that the basics of scuba is the building block to do pregressive dives.

6) Finally you are starting to admit to breaking rules and that is the first step to becoming a safer diver.


7) You said, "On the other end, there are many many divers and instructors who do not walk the talk and do break rules all the times and this puts them and the dive team at risk, and sometimes people die too (and when this happens it is all kept as quiet as possible).

That is true but almost all never post or brag about doing such things. Also, most mistakes are overlooked or others turn a blind eye to such events. I have a vast amout of stories where instructors do what they want and feel the rules siimply do not apply to them. It still does not make it right.

Last note: What you do is exactly that, what you want to do. Please do us a favor and not post it here, where many of us are trying to steer newly certified and divers going into tech., where they might follow your bad decision.

 

[gianaameri]

I have stated from the start the importance of a bottom timer and depth gauge. Without either you really have no idea as to your diving profile. OBTW, computer are not just for ascertaining a safe your ascent. they are also used to tell you about MOD of the gas you breath, max depth, etc.

If the cave has a line permanently fixed and has been surveyed and you have personally verified that line and depths and distances and have done this on many occasions, then you know exactly your dive profile.

It is like following a line you have placed on land and which has been mapped and surveyed. Everytime you will be doing the same tour, following the same line, from one fixing point to the other.

In the case of my dive that day depth and distances were known reason for which a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer was not required to know depth and distances. The MOD was marked on the tank and a Dive Computer is not necessary for MOD.

Scuba 101 rule broken, as much I always said, but you have yet to tell me what emergency could have happened that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented or resolved that day on that dive.

Can you do that in one sentence and precisely state the emergency or event?

If you cannot, then there was NO RISK in performing the dive on the day as I did (i.e. no additional risk to not carrying a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer).

If you can, then maybe we can discuss the probability of that event occurring and the severity of the consequences, but until you can articulate a "what if" scenario, the lack of a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer did not add risk to that specific dive.

By all means, I do not advocate not using Dive Computer/Bottom Timers, but don't become overly dependent on them.

A few years back had I said, as I do, that I "solo CCR cave dive" you would have been screaming just for that for "murder."

I can hear your: "No buddy, no dive."

Now, self-sufficient and solo courses are beginning to become mainstream.

Maybe another C-card which teaches divers not to be so blindly reliant on electronics and use other techniques and tools (to complement electronics, not replace them) if and when available could help make them better thinking divers.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

A few years back had I said, as I do, that I "solo CCR cave dive" you would have been screaming just for that for "murder."

I can hear your: "No buddy, no dive."

Now, self-sufficient and solo courses are beginning to become mainstream.

Maybe another C-card which teaches divers not to be so blindly reliant on electronics and use other techniques and tools (to complement electronics, not replace them) if and when available could help make them better thinking divers.

So now you want to go down another path. Solo.
I embrace solo diving....always have and always will. So what you really want everybody to read is when you said that you solo dived before it was mainstream and now that it is accepted then we can deduct that you were one of the pioneers. So you are wanting to try and convince everybody that what is considered today as a piss poor decision to dive without a depth gauge or bottom timer, will on day be accepted.

FYI, they do teach a class, that you can get a C card for, that teaches divers not to be so blindly reliant on electronics and use other techniques and tools...it is called Open Water Certification.

So what do you want to discuss next? Pee valves bal. vs unbal., bugee wings, backmount vs sidemount, cameras, mask, regs, spearguns, pony tanks, deco tanks, Al vs steel tanks, DPV, etc. Guess what? None of that **** means anything on it's own but everything is build around depth and bottom time! You can take me to any place, rivers, under ice, lakes, quarries, pools, caves and even old mines. As long as I have a known gas and depth gauge and bottom timer I can dive it. So if you really don't get why a bottom time and depth gauge are required equipment then you really don't need to be posting on here and use your time better by taking OW again.

 

[gianaameri]

So now you want to go down another path. Solo.
I embrace solo diving....always have and always will. So what you really want everybody to read is when you said that you solo dived before it was mainstream and now that it is accepted then we can deduct that you were one of the pioneers. So you are wanting to try and convince everybody that what is considered today as a piss poor decision to dive without a depth gauge or bottom timer, will on day be accepted.

FYI, they do teach a class, that you can get a C card for, that teaches divers not to be so blindly reliant on electronics and use other techniques and tools...it is called Open Water Certification.

So what do you want to discuss next? Pee valves bal. vs unbal., bugee wings, backmount vs sidemount, cameras, mask, regs, spearguns, pony tanks, deco tanks, Al vs steel tanks, DPV, etc. Guess what? None of that **** means anything on it's own but everything is build around depth and bottom time! You can take me to any place, rivers, under ice, lakes, quarries, pools, caves and even old mines. As long as I have a known gas and depth gauge and bottom timer I can dive it. So if you really don't get why a bottom time and depth gauge are required equipment then you really don't need to be posting on here and use your time better by taking OW again.

I have been diving 29 years and I know what a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is and what it is for.

What I'd like to know from you is why I made a "piss poor decision."

I know I broke Scuba 101 rule diving without a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer that day on that specific dive.

What I don't know because you could not explain it is exactly what emergency the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer I did not bring on that dive that day could have instead prevented or helped me with on that dive on that day?

I enclose for you the dive profiles of the last two dives (1200 meter penetration) the past two days of that cave which you do not believe exists (and a picture of the equipment rinsing party which just finished... now shower, dinner and more party!):

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Wow Gian...cant believe you are still beating a dead horse. No matter what scenario one will bring up you will go back into broken record mode. You should get checked out for Asbergers or Autism because you do not grasp what anyone is telling you. You are so focused on what emergency a computer or bottom timer would have gotten you out of. Answer is "nothing" . Neither one can save you. They are inanimate information devices. You tanks, regs, fins, rebreather etc...are simply tools. They wont save you either. Only you can save you. You used the wrong tools, or should I say you did not have the proper tools for the job at hand. You can improvise in an emergency, but when you improvise because of lack of preparation you can cause an emergency.

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