Maybe its just me

[FinnMom]

You gotta know what liability is like in the USA. Of course they have to do this.

Take AOW, anyone can benefit for a little extra coaching & theory refresher, enjoy the open water course dives as dives with a coach & local expert and in the end you didn't spend much more than if you just bought the dives & guide. Heck if you aren't careful, you might accidentally learn some things or have a little fun.

 

[Bob DBF]

My gripe is currently dealing with dive ops who see OW and deny deep dives. I, for one, believe if you panic in a open environment (not talking about non permissive overhead here just deep) you probably should seek training again. From the way most ops around here talk when confronted with the fact I'm better off scheduling it on my own and rent nitroxxx tanks.

I took my AOW and Deep after 46 years of diving, I have never been asked for an AOW card, however if the insurance company tells the dive op they are not covered for OW divers doing deep dives, the dive op will not allow the dives. I was going on holiday and did not want to be inconvenienced so I got the certs instead of griping. If it was on my personal boat, we wouldn't be diving more than 60' until I could see if you dive as good as you seem to think you can.

There is a lot more involved in panic than water conditions, OW training, and personal bravado. I have not panicked yet, but I have seen it as my next option.



Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Storker]

You gotta know what liability is like in the USA. Of course they have to do this.

You don't need to be afraid of US style litigation to be concerned about divers exceeding their limits and training on your watch.

Heck, if I were responsible for a club outing and one of the freshly minted members wanted to go to 25-30m (80-100ft), I'd have a serious chat with him, strongly discourage it and suggest an alternative dive plan. I'm in no danger of being sued, but someone getting bent or dying on a club outing kinda ruins the mood. Not to mention the bad press we'd get.

 

[FinnMom]

I did not intend to imply that the operator's request was otherwise unneeded, my point was that debating it in the USA is almost surely a waste of time.
In other places they may be willing to consider another person's testimony to your experience, their own observations of your competence, etc., but in the USA the need for something more official in case of a lawsuit or because of tight insurance stipulations is very real.
The diver should just decide on getting the Advanced card and refocus his thoughts on the positive points of the situation.

 

[AdivingBel]

I did not intend to imply that the operator's request was otherwise unneeded, my point was that debating it in the USA is almost surely a waste of time.

The OP should go ahead and get the AOW if he/she is planning dive travel. Just makes life easier. On the other hand, I've seen several instances of Florida dive shops willing to check log books or get to know a diver over a few dives and then allowing them to dive some of the (recreational) deep wrecks. As an OW you are certified to recreational depths (130 ft). The rest of the limitaions (60 ft OW, 100 ft. AOW etc.) are agency suggestions mainly for training purposes. I don't know why people keep quoting these limits as some type of laws. There is no scuba police (in the USA). Dive OPs just want to know you are capable of the planned dive. In a situation where they don't have time to get to know you (like short term vacation diving), it makes sense to request an agency cert that shows you've been there before. The tougher the dive conditions, the colder the water, the better they need to know you. I'm sure there is ass covering going on, but the shops I generally deal with just want you to come back safely.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

My gripe is currently dealing with dive ops who see OW and deny deep dives. I, for one, believe if you panic in a open environment (not talking about non permissive overhead here just deep) you probably should seek training again. From the way most ops around here talk when confronted with the fact I'm better off scheduling it on my own and rent nitroxxx tanks.

As already answered in several posts, there are good reasons (both for safety and liability) that dive ops require "proof" that I diver is actually ready to dive below 60'. If they don't know you, the only "proof" available to them is your certification card and logbook, and whatever "feeling" they form about your stated skill level based on observing you.

Most OW courses that I know of do not go much below 60' during their checkout dives. At the end of most OW courses, the instructor will usually tell the students that they are certified to dive in conditions they were trained in, or better.

Are "recreational limits" 130 feet? Yes. Should you dive deeper than the deepest dive you did in OW training, in conditions worse than you experienced in OW training? Probably not.

Move into deeper diving gradually. Get whatever C-cards are required by the dive ops to do the dives you want to do, but do dive a lot and move into more difficult diving slowly.

As far as panic goes.... I've seen it. On the surface (by a diver who was not really in true danger), and passive panic at depth (by a diver who was in grave danger, but froze and could not help themselves). You do not know what your personal limits are until you've had some "come to Jesus" moments, and you typically don't have those until you've been diving awhile.

Best wishes.

 

[TMHeimer]

Agree with last 2 posts. And that AOW card is at least some little tangible thing an op can see when not knowing a diver. The 130' rec. limit and "conditions similar to training", etc. has always puzzled me. The 60' limit is of course an agency recommendation, but there is no advice on how to increase depth. How gradually? With a pro at first or gradually with a fellow newbie? How many dives should an OW diver have before going to 100 or 130'? After 1,000 dives is it OK to do this without AOW or Deep Cert? Old questions, sorry.

 

[KeithG]

How many dives should an OW diver have before going to 100 or 130'? After 1,000 dives is it OK to do this without AOW or Deep Cert? Old questions, sorry.

47! Or was that 63? Hang on, 87! Yes, that's it!

I agree with your observation of the vast amount of FUD regarding OW vs AOW vs experience vs anything else.

We look for the following in dive ops we use:
- a professional attitude and willingness to treat us like competent divers (dive your own profile)
- ability to identify if we are actually capable of being competent divers (in the local conditions)

I am happy for the dive op to chat with and observe us and make their own educated opinion of our abilities to safely dive in the conditions under which they operate. If this means that the first dive or 2 are "easy", then that is fine. Or if they even decide to decline us outright based upon our discussion. I am unhappy if they blindly require / reject us based upon some paperwork certificate.

We are OW certified, but have many years of caribbean dive experience. I am confident that any of the dive ops we frequent would "hand" us AOW cards for the price of the course as they have already witnessed us doing all of the required dives.

But possession of this AOW card would NOT magically transform us into competent Florida Keys drift divers, let alone capable of competently diving the north east coast. We would require further locale specific training and guidance.

So:
- Blind rejection based upon lack of a specific card - an annoyance
- Blind acceptance based upon possession of a specific card - recipe for disaster

 

[RJP]

Not saying that you don't... But that is pretty hard to believe.

I would think it would take a whole lot more to cancel a charter than not getting "warm and fuzzy" from the group.

Q: "How many dive boat captains does it take to change a light bulb?"
A: "F*** YOU!"

 

[Storker]

The OP should go ahead and get the AOW if he/she is planning dive travel. Just makes life easier.

Agree. That was, in fact my primary reason for taking AOW: we were planning a diving vacation, and someone told me about his experiences with some ops.


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