Being pushed into buying gear - Is this normal?

[rdbradish]

In fact, I would say people who own the entire set of gears going into their first session, they will likley to replace every piece of those gear if they continue to dive

Please forgive and don't think I am harassing you, but the silliness behind this statement is so obvious to anyone that dives since EVERYONE, regardless of where trained, when or how, "will likley to replace every piece of those gear if they continue to dive."

The likelihood of replacing gear is a silly reason not to buy. Lets focus on the scalability of the gear purchased instead. My US Divers Aquarius regulator purchased in 1983 may have been a crap regulator, but guess what, I put 50-60 dives on it before I knew enough to replace it. By that time, I also knew enough about diving in general to make better educated choices.

 

[tridacna]

go elsewhere.

the truth is that shops make their money not from teaching but from selling gear.

LOL. Stores that charge north of $800 to certify an OW diver are not doing this as a loss leader. Add the $199 Seawing Novas, $95 Liquidskin mask, $54 Spectradry snorkel and $65 booties and they are doing really nicely on one OW cert!


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[kelemvor]

LOL. Stores that charge north of $800 to certify an OW diver are not doing this as a loss leader. Add the $199 Seawing Novas, $95 Liquidskin mask, $54 Spectradry snorkel and $65 booties and they are doing really nicely on one OW cert!

I've only ever seen one shop charge anywhere near that. Extreme Exposure (the GUE shop) in High Springs. Every other shop I've ever been in, which is quite a few.. charge in the ballpark of $300. Meanwhile they are pimping $1000 sets of gear to new divers (or more if you buy something better than their bottom of the barrel kits). I guess training prices vary greatly based on location.

I'll have to go look but I think I didn't pay much more than $800 for Cave1+2 both. I picked a respected instructor in the cave community, too. That's certainly a much more rigorous and time consuming course to teach.

For $800 I'd expect a lengthy and detailed private OW class with oodles of time in the water.

---------- Post added February 6th, 2015 at 10:23 PM ----------

Please forgive and don't think I am harassing you, but the silliness behind this statement is so obvious to anyone that dives since EVERYONE, regardless of where trained, when or how, "will likley to replace every piece of those gear if they continue to dive.

I waited to buy my gear, and still end up replacing most of it in short order. BP/W got relegated to aquarium dives while I dive a sidemount rig. Replaced fins (eliminated articulation), replaced wetsuit (damaged on a work dive), replaced snorkel (damaged on a cleanup dive), replaced booties (original were too big). I haven't replaced my regulators mask or tanks.



I think people have a perception dive shops make money selling gear because of two things. 1. That's what you hear on this forum from dive professionals often. and 2. Diveshops often charge significantly more than online stores. Sometimes double.

 

[KevinNM]

I love my I3....wouldn't trade it for the world.

want a spare? make me an offer.

 

[redacted]

I waited to buy my gear, and still end up replacing most of it in short order.

Do you think, even for a moment, that is a surprise to the shop that sold it to you?

The longer you can wait, the more you will realize that the most cost effective way to buy gear is picking up used gear at a small fraction of the price that scuba retailers want to get you diving.

 

[KevinNM]

I've only ever seen one shop charge anywhere near that. Extreme Exposure (the GUE shop) in High Springs. Every other shop I've ever been in, which is quite a few.. charge in the ballpark of $300. Meanwhile they are pimping $1000 sets of gear to new divers (or more if you buy something better than their bottom of the barrel kits). I guess training prices vary greatly based on location.

the GUE REC 1 course is a 6 day, 14 dive "learn to dive course". it's vastly more in depth than the typical PADI 4 dive OW course. EE also teaches PADI OW, but I have no idea what that costs.

 

[SubAquatix]

LOL. Stores that charge north of $800 to certify an OW diver are not doing this as a loss leader. Add the $199 Seawing Novas, $95 Liquidskin mask, $54 Spectradry snorkel and $65 booties and they are doing really nicely on one OW cert!


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Love be it when people use math. Ok, so let's use your number, and on top of that, a 50% margin. For easy math, I'll say the class is 100% profit that's ~$210 in product and 800 in training. Net new OW certifications here in Raleigh, let's be crazy and say 150, $150000 in training revenue alone. Hey I must be rich. Sure, now for taxes, down to $100 k, oh and the $2000. A month rent, now at $76k. Will lump utils, gas, water and operational costs for another $6k, taking it down to $70k. We have stock growth and rental replenishment. Let's be cheap and say $20K to grow the store, hey we're down to $50k, which I have to payout another $15k for the help in it's various forms. Hey, I made $35000 for the year! I'm middle class!

I might almost be able to pay my mortgage, insurance, car, payments and kids braces with that! Now, how do I get from the "national average" (according to DEMA, in one of their meetings last year) of $350 to that wonderful $800 per class !

Has anyone figured out why most of the people investing in Scuba made their money in computers, yet?

 

[tridacna]

I've only ever seen one shop charge anywhere near that. Extreme Exposure (the GUE shop) in High Springs. Every other shop I've ever been in, which is quite a few.. charge in the ballpark of $300. Meanwhile they are pimping $1000 sets of gear to new divers (or more if you buy something better than their bottom of the barrel kits). I guess training prices vary greatly based on location.

I'll have to go look but I think I didn't pay much more than $800 for Cave1+2 both. I picked a respected instructor in the cave community, too. That's certainly a much more rigorous and time consuming course to teach.

For $800 I'd expect a lengthy and detailed private OW class with oodles of time in the water.

---------- Post added February 6th, 2015 at 10:23 PM ----------



I waited to buy my gear, and still end up replacing most of it in short order. BP/W got relegated to aquarium dives while I dive a sidemount rig. Replaced fins (eliminated articulation), replaced wetsuit (damaged on a work dive), replaced snorkel (damaged on a cleanup dive), replaced booties (original were too big). I haven't replaced my regulators mask or tanks.



I think people have a perception dive shops make money selling gear because of two things. 1. That's what you hear on this forum from dive professionals often. and 2. Diveshops often charge significantly more than online stores. Sometimes double.

I started a thread to ascertain prices for OW. $500 is typical. $800 in some stores. LDSs usually mark up 100% over cost on most items.

---------- Post added February 7th, 2015 at 12:18 AM ----------

Love be it when people use math. Ok, so let's use your number, and on top of that, a 50% margin. For easy math, I'll say the class is 100% profit that's ~$210 in product and 800 in training. Net new OW certifications here in Raleigh, let's be crazy and say 150, $150000 in training revenue alone. Hey I must be rich. Sure, now for taxes, down to $100 k, oh and the $2000. A month rent, now at $76k. Will lump utils, gas, water and operational costs for another $6k, taking it down to $70k. We have stock growth and rental replenishment. Let's be cheap and say $20K to grow the store, hey we're down to $50k, which I have to payout another $15k for the help in it's various forms. Hey, I made $35000 for the year! I'm middle class!

I might almost be able to pay my mortgage, insurance, car, payments and kids braces with that! Now, how do I get from the "national average" (according to DEMA, in one of their meetings last year) of $350 to that wonderful $800 per class !

Has anyone figured out why most of the people investing in Scuba made their money in computers, yet?

Apparently your store does no travel, other classes, boat trips, and sales outside of your core OW newbies. Regulator service is very profitable. I'm not saying that a LDS is hugely profitable by any means but you can make a decent living if well run.

 

[mselenaous]

I would say BS as well. To me, buying mask that fit is the only necessary item. Others are optional. In fact, I would say people who own the entire set of gears going into their first session, they will likley to replace every piece of those gear if they continue to dive

So with this theory, we should never buy a cellphone, laptop, TV, shoes, car, coffee maker, or etc... because you are going to replace it eventually/soon enough...


I have replaced all my gear multiple times since I started diving decades ago and even since I started teaching.
Technology changes including not just computers but also better lighter more comfortable materials (ie lights are smaller brighter last longer, purge snorkels), trends come & go (ie integrated weights or belts, air2s, I3s) , ... and my gear shrinks around my middle :rofl4:

 

[SubAquatix]

Apparently your store does no travel, other classes, boat trips, and sales outside of your core OW newbies. Regulator service is very profitable. I'm not saying that a LDS is hugely profitable by any means but you can make a decent living if well run.

I would agree, except that, with those additional services come additional costs. travel, for example, used to be quite profitable, however, in the past 10 years, with every offering being available on the internet as well, travel value prop has diminished. In most cases, it has become a means of sending 1 or 2 pro's away at a discount or for free. Of course, once they get there, they normally teach or lead. Other classes run the same issue as OW, and frequently more so. Until you get someone into Technical specialties, where the effort and reward are much more in line with professional norms (i.e. $20-25 per hour of effort). Boat Trips?? Laughable!! You must not own a boat! With Boat operating costs, fees and licensing, most operators are running at margins of 15-20%. 10 people on a boat, $125 each for the trip. Hey, we make a whopping $250 for the day!! Oh wait, here is your $150 Captain!

The point is, who determines what a reasonable living is? Shop owners over the years have left big business, and taken on the risks, for a chance at the value of ownership. What do they get? Well, here in Raleigh, the number 1 or 2 shop had it's owner die. By the time everything was settled, it appears as though the net value was around $60K. Nothing new. The largest shop in New York, Divers Way, closed it's door in the late 90's because the property was worth more than the business.

And here, in this thread, it's all about the evil dive shop using marketing to drive an additional $60 profit into the sale.

Yeah, if I wanna get involved in a business, I think I'll stick to refuse. LOL