After dive oxygen: shouldn’t the diver decide?

[Wookie]

Again, does this actually happen? Are there people behaving like children?

OMG, Ken. The stories I could tell.

 

[Storker]

Is someone who managed to have an uncontrolled descent the best judge of best practices?

I assume you're the perfect diver who hasn't had one single little "oops" in your diving career? Since you can draw such inferences from a non-incident?

What about diving makes people act like such children?

And what about Scubaboard makes people act like they have a big chip on their shoulder and not being able to discuss the topic, but rather engage in snark and poorly camouflaged sniping?



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[KenGordon]

OMG, Ken. The stories I could tell.

Go on, specifically wanting O2 and to dive again?

 

[Wookie]

Go on, specifically wanting O2 and to dive again?

Sure, or getting speared through the hand and wanting to dive again with butterfly bandages instead of stitches, or being what I consider bent and signing the refusal of treatment waiver and diving again, or tech diving solo, or any number of violation of boat rules, agency rules, or common sense and continuing to dive.

This thread is loosely based on an incident that happened recently on another liveaboard, where a diver surfaced with indications of an IPE and requested O2. The captain withheld the O2 and (things get a little fuzzy here for me) then gave him a mostly empty cylinder and told him that he would be evacuated to a military base if he insisted on going on O2 and....

I have had 2 divers surface with indications of IPE. The first was a man in his 70's diving a Vision Evolution rebreather. He came up with a pink frothy sputum and was placed on 100% O2. He refused treatment, resolved on O2, and dived again. He came up a second time with more pink frothy sputum, was placed on 100% O2, and did not dive the rest of the trip. The second was a tri-athelete also on a Vision Evolution rebreather. I don't blame the vision or the Evolution, but it is interesting that both IPE cases I've seen were on full trimix in 250+ feet. Anyway, she surfaced with full gurgling lungs (she shot her "distress" bag on deco so we knew she was coming up in trouble) but no froth. This boat hasn't moved so fast in a long time bringing her to the dock. I was able to dictate her medical treatment, as she was crew.

Point is, divers spent a lot of money to go on liveaboard. They want to "enjoy" every minute.

 

[KenGordon]

Sure, or getting speared through the hand and wanting to dive again with butterfly bandages instead of stitches, or being what I consider bent and signing the refusal of treatment waiver and diving again, or tech diving solo, or any number of violation of boat rules, agency rules, or common sense and continuing to dive.

This thread is loosely based on an incident that happened recently on another liveaboard, where a diver surfaced with indications of an IPE and requested O2. The captain withheld the O2 and (things get a little fuzzy here for me) then gave him a mostly empty cylinder and told him that he would be evacuated to a military base if he insisted on going on O2 and....

I have had 2 divers surface with indications of IPE. The first was a man in his 70's diving a Vision Evolution rebreather. He came up with a pink frothy sputum and was placed on 100% O2. He refused treatment, resolved on O2, and dived again. He came up a second time with more pink frothy sputum, was placed on 100% O2, and did not dive the rest of the trip. The second was a tri-athelete also on a Vision Evolution rebreather. I don't blame the vision or the Evolution, but it is interesting that both IPE cases I've seen were on full trimix in 250+ feet. Anyway, she surfaced with full gurgling lungs (she shot her "distress" bag on deco so we knew she was coming up in trouble) but no froth. This boat hasn't moved so fast in a long time bringing her to the dock. I was able to dictate her medical treatment, as she was crew.

Point is, divers spent a lot of money to go on liveaboard. They want to "enjoy" every minute.

But these are examples of people who actually NEEDED O2. I was trying to establish whether there are any people that want O2 for non therapeutic purposes on a boat.

 

[NAM001]

The flip side to this is that .... because they offer O2 on the boat on request one does not have to observe ndl's and there fore the boat is by provision of o2 encouraging divers to push limits.

Boats i have used ask the following when returning to the boat. max depth and air remaining. So now divers will say after a 120 dive and going into deco. 80 ft 600 psi, and justify it cause the computers and tables are conservative and i can make it up using O2 on the boat. flower gardens boats know just how dangerous that could be when doing 13-15 dives in 2.5 to 3 days. I still say that if you want to use o2 then you should just take the easy path and get nitrox certed. I know that doesnt help if the boat does not have nitrox on the menu. If you are having problems on the boat , its your body telling you to take it easy. O2 just mask's the problems.

As lawyers go, they have no concience, they will take what ever side of an arguement that pays the most. If someone gets bent then if they represent the diver the boat is at fault, if they represent the boat the diver was at fault. facts are irrelivant. Now what do you do with a new diver that has been told that every dive is a deco dive, O2 is the fix for it, and you can sue if the boat doesnt give you O2 when you need it. This is not far fetched its all right here on SB. The problem is that the new guy takes these statements out of context and gears his diving acordingly. I really have to back the boats on this topic.

Seems like that policy might serve to discourage open communication from your divers... if they are aware of the policy.

 

[Freewillow]

The flip side to this is that .... because they offer O2 on the boat on request one does not have to observe ndl's and there fore the boat is by provision of o2 encouraging divers to push limits.

On what basis do you judge that to go slighly beyond NDL's is pushing limits?

 

[Wookie]

But these are examples of people who actually NEEDED O2. I was trying to establish whether there are any people that want O2 for non therapeutic purposes on a boat.

The University of Miami scientific dive team (rebreathers) standard protocol is to breath 100% O2 on the surface for 5 minutes following every trimix dive. The Diving Safety Officer for UM is also the president of AAUS this year. Is that what you meant? They don't need O2, they follow their Vision software to the letter. They want O2 on the surface. They also do a 5 minute O2 deco at 15 feet on their ascent. They are extremely conservative divers. Lots of tech divers breath 100% off of their deco bottles on the surface. Maybe 20% or more?

---------- Post added April 1st, 2015 at 01:02 PM ----------

On what basis do you judge that to go slighly beyond NDL's is pushing limits?

Is this meant in jest? The acronym NDL stands for No Decompression LIMIT. To go beyond an NDL is the very definition of pushing or violating limits.

 

[lowviz]

... Lots of tech divers breath 100% off of their deco bottles on the surface. Maybe 20% or more?

The surface is indeed a valid stop, most likely the one with the biggest change in ATA also. Add to that all the oxygen you paid for and have to (or should) bring to the surface as reserve...

 

[NAM001]

This post of yours is the example i refer to. Your comment is saying that speed limit is 65 and you are driving 70. Your rational is ,,,,,on whta basis do you dudge that pushing the speed limit is driving too fast. My position is tht those who might push the limits will now do it as a routine and those who now dont would now push the limits thinking that O2 on the boat is the bandaid for it. O2 on the boat does not negate the need to adhere to NDL's.

Other than that DAHHHHH NDLimit.Where would you put the line for divers not to cross. 10% 20% over the NDL?? Lets add to that the no dive beer limit of 4 beers. Limit is a limit, is it a conservative one, YES, Is it done theat way delibertly, YES 40 min may be the true limit and the tables call for 35min. Who is anyone to say that you or any other is exempt from it. Given that choice every fat man with a belly hanging to his knees will see them selves as a marathon runner and can dive more agressivly than the tables recommend. Please no one tell me that not diving beyond NDL is only a training restriction and after that a recommendation.

On what basis do you judge that to go slighly beyond NDL's is pushing limits?