PADI Self Reliant vs SDI Solo

[halocline]

So you don't think having gas to breath underwater is very important? Most folks think that is the prime directive!

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Of course, but obviously you do understand that gas is already available in the main tank. So is immediate access to the surface, or else it's not OW diving. Carrying a bailout bottle might make people 'feel' they're being 'safe' but in truth the sudden inability to get gas from the main tank is very very very very rare. Free flows are not, but with good dive planning and gas management, a free flow should NEVER result in OOA situations. Again, immediate access to the surface......

And it's not that I object to the use of a bailout bottle; a redundant gas supply is prudent in some diving situations. But it hardly makes solo diving safe simply by providing a solution to what is very unlikely to be a problem. My issue is not with the use of a bailout bottle, but the often implied (and sometimes outright stated) sentiment that a recreational diver with a bailout bottle is now ready for solo diving, or at least 'ersatz' solo diving. I'm sure that's not how this class is intended, it's just something that is commonly expressed in a variety of settings.

BTW, I did not intend to comment directly on the content of the class, although I can certainly see why my post would give that impression. What I intended was to simply express a general skepticism about PADI's involvement in a solo diving class. I have that skepticism for two reasons: 1)PADI has decried solo diving for so long, to the point where they still refuse to call their class 'solo', that it undermines their credibility in the specialty, at least to me. 2) I feel that solo diving has more in common with technical diving than recreational diving as taught by the major agencies. As such, I would be more comfortable taking (or recommending) a solo course taught by one of the technical agencies.

Now, certainly there are PADI instructors who are excellent, thorough, and fully committed to the idea of solo diving, and maybe you're one of them, but I would not say that that's the norm, based on my experience.

 

[redacted]

Swimming on your back is probably the best solution; until you have to deal with UW obstruction.

 

[tursiops]

Of course, but obviously you do understand that gas is already available in the main tank.

The whole point of the pony is for when that gas is no longer available. You are supposed to plan not to run out, but people do. You are supposed to not get entangled, but people do. Your hoses are not supposed to break, but they do. Your regulator is not supposed to fail, but they do. I agree, these are all unlikely, but they are not impossible.

So is immediate access to the surface, or else it's not OW diving.

Depends on what you mean by "immediate." I think you mean "unobstructed." It still can be 2-3 minutes away, if you ascend at a safe speed, even without a safety stop. CESA? Not something to look forward to in real life, or beyond 30 ft, or without a nice breathe to start it off. Carrying a no-effort pony allows a calm, slow ascent, and a safety stop. It turns an emergency into an annoyance.

Carrying a bailout bottle might make people 'feel' they're being 'safe' but in truth the sudden inability to get gas from the main tank is very very very very rare. Free flows are not, but with good dive planning and gas management, a free flow should NEVER result in OOA situations. Again, immediate access to the surface......

My only freeflow was at the start of a dive, at 70 ft. By the time I got to the surface (breathing from it to conserve/use the remaining gas), I had 200 psi left. What if that had been later in the dive? My buddy once had a hose give way while we were at 60 ft, mid-dive. Silt happens, as the cave divers say.

And it's not that I object to the use of a bailout bottle; a redundant gas supply is prudent in some diving situations. But it hardly makes solo diving safe simply by providing a solution to what is very unlikely to be a problem.

No one has promoted or said that all you need is a redundant gas source to solo dive safely. You just set that up as a strawman and properly knocked it down.

My issue is not with the use of a bailout bottle, but the often implied (and sometimes outright stated) sentiment that a recreational diver with a bailout bottle is now ready for solo diving, or at least 'ersatz' solo diving. I'm sure that's not how this class is intended, it's just something that is commonly expressed in a variety of settings.

You, saying it here, is the ONLY time I've heard it expressed. So it is certainly not "common"!

 

[uncfnp]

So halocline. You are judging suitability and standards for solo and you have never taken the course? :shocked2:

Oh wait. I forgot I was on SB. Carry on...

 

[Nemrod]

Regardless of what SDI/PADI put in their standards, it is a fact that many very seasoned and experienced solo divers use the surface as their fall back redundancy rather than an extra bottle. We are talking OW diving as Halocline reminds. I am comfortable at 60 feet free diving. I understand that SDI and PADI have implemented standards for their certifications and I will, as a SDI certified solo diver, now adhere to those standards when I am diving under the card (as in having presented the card to be allowed to solo dive). But I fully intend to continue to solo in benign and familiar environments without a pony/IDs/Isolation Doubles as I see fit from my own boat, kayak or from public shore entires as I have done for decades. Solo from my Boston Whaler in the Destin Gulf, no extra anything including no BC or pony or superfluous octopus second stage. Not needed, what is needed, reliability.

Olympus 770SW.

N

 

[rx7diver]

For years I have been told I was doing it wrong and that I should swim face down with my snorkel oblivious to jet skis, motor boats and whatever else not to mention being able to navigate when surface swimming on my back while transitioning from shore entry to the dive site and back. Surface swimming face down is inefficient at best and possibly dangerous.

Well, when wearing rec gear and using a single, relatively lightweight back tank (e.g., Al 80 or PST steel 72 or HP 80 or PST HP 100) and appropriate exposurewear, I, for one, will continue to surface swim on my stomach with my face in the water, my ears out of the water (more or less), and my snorkel in my mouth. We who surface swim this way don't actually *keep* our faces in the water. We look up periodically to see what's going on around us, maintain our bearing, etc.

I described in a SB post several years ago an open water skill that was required when i certified. The skinny is, we surface swam three miles this way (in 1/4" full farmer John/Jane wetsuits) with absolutely no air in our BC. The key was/is being properly weighted. And being able to put up with the boredom of swimming in a very deep freshwater lake. I still surface swim this way. I'm still able to surface swim long distances this way, "inefficiency" notwithstanding, and I am NOT, nor ever have been, a strong swimmer.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[Nemrod]

Well, when wearing rec gear and using a single, relatively lightweight back tank (e.g., Al 80 or PST steel 72 or HP 80 or PST HP 100) and appropriate exposurewear, I, for one, will continue to surface swim on my stomach with my face in the water, my ears out of the water (more or less), and my snorkel in my mouth. We who surface swim this way don't actually *keep* our faces in the water. We look up periodically to see what's going on around us, maintain our bearing, etc.

I described in a SB post several years ago an open water skill that was required when i certified. The skinny is, we surface swam three miles this way (in 1/4" full farmer John/Jane wetsuits) with absolutely no air in our BC. The key was/is being properly weighted. And being able to put up with the boredom of swimming in a very deep freshwater lake. I still surface swim this way. I'm still able to surface swim long distances this way, "inefficiency" notwithstanding, and I am NOT, nor ever have been, a strong swimmer.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

This matters not to me how you surface swim. What matters to me is when people say one way or the other is wrong. If you feel comfortable face down by all means but realize that a jet ski traveling 60 MPH or my BW at 40 knots, you in black, you may or may not be seen and while I certainly know what a dive flag is, I find myself amongst the minority of boaters and jetski people are not even boaters, they are far worse. What works well one place or with one type of scuba rig may or may not work well for another. As far as no air in your BC, I am known not to even have a BC even for significant surface swims, they just get in my way and slow me down. I do use a good surface float and flag.

With the surface being my redundancy, should I need to exit stage left, I will ascend at 60 FPM. This was the standard ascent rate for years, and I, like everyone back then, did so. I am still here. And a safety stop is not mandatory. And this assuming a total failure. I would continue to breath the system until it went completely TU and by that time if I am not at the surface already, I would be close, so no hurry, no worries. We can make up stories and scenarios, the truth is that solo, no aux bottle, at 30 or 40 feet is hardly dangerous in many places and the surface is only 30 to 40 seconds away. And it is situation dependent. Dark water, entanglement hazards, significant depths, of course not.

N

 

[RJP]

The instructor I've talked to about the the subject teaches the PADI course with the SDI manual which seems kinda odd to me

Is the instructor at a PADI "5 Star IDC Center"?

If so, they can't teach a course from another agency that PADI offers... but they can sell yiu the other agency's book if PADI doesn't have one.

 

[Pyramid65]

I've had the SDI manual for months, seemed like a good read and has helped me be better prepared. He's not at a center but is an instructor, how does PADI teach the course if they have no manual? I got my OW on June 29th '14 and now have AOW, PPB, Wreck, Nitrox, Ice, Deep, Rescue/ERC and the Master (which amounts to a piece of plastic). I dive primarily sidemount have been since dive #21...I'm currently at 65 ttl a far cry from most out there but after diving for 3 months I was asked if the Dive Master program was my path, it is not, I did enough teaching in the military and want no part of it. I hit SCUBA like everything else I do....HARD and continue to soak up as much info as I can, look'in to get into Tech another reason for this course, a stepping stone

 

[ffdiver]

There are a few courses were PADI doesn't actually provide a manual. Sidemount didn't get a manual for a long time, PSD was missing one. It takes a long time for them to write out manuals, as they usually do a nice job of them even if the content is lacking in some cases.

If PADI has a manual, you are required to have it in your possession but the instructor can use any other resource they seem fit. We just can't fail a student if don't complete the other agencies knowledge reviews or quiz or the like.

PADI gets a bad rap since most people assume that PADI instructors can't add anything to a course. It's simply untrue. I can add whatever I want to the course but I can't withhold certification if you meet all of PADIs standards.

I have never had an issue were a student was able to pass the PADI standards but not mine. Remember PADI requires mastery of all skills at the level the student is getting certified at. So if the instructor is worth is stuff he enforces that.