Just to be sarcastic. I hope that the baby learned to swim from a professional and not in a home pool.. And if so hopefully the store attendant did not refuse to sell some arm floaty's when they found out that mom or dad was teaching the bably to swim. Not fair I know. but amusing none the less.
Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)
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DaleC
Contributor
Hi Frosty,
KWS beat me to it with the tongue in cheek response about non professional instruction, though I really have no feelings one way or the other. I also started my kids early in the water
As noted though, the MDR has nothing to do with holding ones breath at any age. The only exception being serious breathhold divers who would want to strengthen that response so they can dive deeper/longer.
I was half serious about the other part where we are so quick to judge grandpa as being unknowing while talking about reflexes we don't even understand ourselves.
---------- Post added June 26th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ----------
Though not really applicable in this case that's also a good argument against "trust me" dives.
KWS beat me to it with the tongue in cheek response about non professional instruction, though I really have no feelings one way or the other. I also started my kids early in the water
As noted though, the MDR has nothing to do with holding ones breath at any age. The only exception being serious breathhold divers who would want to strengthen that response so they can dive deeper/longer.
I was half serious about the other part where we are so quick to judge grandpa as being unknowing while talking about reflexes we don't even understand ourselves.
---------- Post added June 26th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ----------
Though not really applicable in this case that's also a good argument against "trust me" dives.
IN MY COUNTRY --under no circumstances is a non professional allowed to instruct a child. It must be done in a controlled environment using only certified professionals.
WHEEE--didya see that big ol flying pig????
Actually im only half kidding-around here its a mummy- baby bonding thingee to take your bubs along to swim class at the local pool. I figure its not a bad thing and the little kid drowning rate has dropped off.
Mind you equally-local schools tried to ban tree climbing by school kids cos it was too dangerous.
Do I smell some sort of disdain for trained instructors (in whatever field)? I may be old fashioned, but I still think people who are trained to train other people are better at it than someone who decides to dabble in it for the first time. There are swim instructors who specialize in teaching young children, and from what I have heard, some are very good at it. What happened to the world? We used to trust people who held themselves out as experts. We used to trust people in uniforms. We used to trust our government--they knew what was best for us, right? I mean this all rhetorically, of course. I know what happened. We all do. We are in some ways less naive than previous generations. We have more information available to us. We're exposed to endless debates on every issue. But still, I can't help but feel like these days everyone thinks he knows what's best for himself and others, everyone on the Internet is a self-professed expert, every dive shop employee is a mere tank monkey, everyone can teach his kids better than others can, etc. There are no doubt knowledgeable and capable people out there--and as far as diving is concerned, I believe many members of SB are in this category--but I also suspect the majority out there are not as knowledgeable or capable as they think, and maybe a small minority are downright dangerous.
/Rant off
/Rant off
Infant swim classes were just beginning in my area 36 years ago when my son was born. When he was 6 months old we took him to am infant swim class held at the local recreation center. It took us a while, but we eventually realized that the infant swim instructor had had little or no training in this and was pretty much trying to figure it out as we went. It was terrible. My son developed a fear of swimming that took many years to overcome. He still doesn't like it much.
He became a father for the first time last year, and when his daughter was 6 months old, he and his wife enrolled her in infant swim classes. The instructor really knew what she was doing. It was a great experience, and my granddaughter cannot wait to get in the water every time they go.
He became a father for the first time last year, and when his daughter was 6 months old, he and his wife enrolled her in infant swim classes. The instructor really knew what she was doing. It was a great experience, and my granddaughter cannot wait to get in the water every time they go.
DaleC
Contributor
No.
What you may hear is disdain for an industry that has sought to monetize every aspect of diving by creating a fear based approach and assuming people are too stupid to even learn how to tie their shoelaces without some form of "professional guidance". You probably need professional instruction to perform brain surgery but it is entirely optional when preparing a salad.
There may also be a hint of disdain for so called professionals that can go from zero to hero without even doing moderately difficult dives outside a guided classroom environment and then presume to be the gatekeepers for others.
Good instructors who take pride in their study, yet respect the possible knowledge of others and who provide a balanced approach to what and how one should learn have no problem gaining respect from me.
Wow Dale your post above really hit the nail on the head over and over. One thing about old people( like my self) is that we don't need much time to assess a situation to see where it is going. Of the 3 paragraphs you wrote the gramps heard the shop guy talk and may have immediately put him in the 1st and 2nd para's because if he was in the 3rd the conversation would have taken a different path. It would be funny to find out that the scuba thing came up cause of a neighbor threatening to report him to cps for teaching the kid to ride a bike with out a helmet earlier that morning. Most younger folks get fed up with people while older folks get their fill of attitude.
DaleC
Contributor
Here's an example of the different ways some may approach things as compared to others.
Servicing gear:
Before I knew better, when ever I had a problem or concern with gear I would go to the dive shop and ask the "professional" for advice. They would tell me some nonsense about "life support" and take my gear for "professional" servicing, which always seemed to cost a lot. They never taught me anything unless it was in the form of a course, and I was stuck in an endless loop of dependence on a dive shop to facilitate my diving. I was even told I needed a continuing program of education "never stop learning" which they would supply, for a price. The professional positioned themselves in such a way that they became the gateway through which I had to go continuously, in order to dive.
Then I joined a club and met a guy who became a sort of mentor to me. He showed me how to do simple field repairs and how the parts actually worked. That LP inflator hose I was charged $40 for because it leaked was now fixed by simply tightening the schrader valve or replacing a single O ring, and he showed me how to make a simple tool to do it. SPG leaking? Change the spindle. OPV sticking? Bust it apart and look. Second stages etc... This learning occurred all the time, either individually or in the club setting. Strangely enough, I continued to learn about diving but now I rarely needed the help of professionals to do so. Those occasions became the exception, rather than the rule.
The "professionals" motivation is to keep information to themselves, unless they can sell it, because information to them is a commodity.
For others diving is a hobby/pastime/passion and we share our information because we genuinely enjoy doing so and form friendships as part of the process. Profit is not a motivation.
And there is the clash of ideologies, which we see being expressed here. What some people do for money/power others do out of enjoyment. The professional tries to protect their turf by claiming the layman is unskilled, and the layman protects their turf by claiming the professional is motivated by money or position.
It takes a pretty centered and secure individual to remain true to their values while still allowing that other contrary values may have merit. Mostly, we polarize.
Servicing gear:
Before I knew better, when ever I had a problem or concern with gear I would go to the dive shop and ask the "professional" for advice. They would tell me some nonsense about "life support" and take my gear for "professional" servicing, which always seemed to cost a lot. They never taught me anything unless it was in the form of a course, and I was stuck in an endless loop of dependence on a dive shop to facilitate my diving. I was even told I needed a continuing program of education "never stop learning" which they would supply, for a price. The professional positioned themselves in such a way that they became the gateway through which I had to go continuously, in order to dive.
Then I joined a club and met a guy who became a sort of mentor to me. He showed me how to do simple field repairs and how the parts actually worked. That LP inflator hose I was charged $40 for because it leaked was now fixed by simply tightening the schrader valve or replacing a single O ring, and he showed me how to make a simple tool to do it. SPG leaking? Change the spindle. OPV sticking? Bust it apart and look. Second stages etc... This learning occurred all the time, either individually or in the club setting. Strangely enough, I continued to learn about diving but now I rarely needed the help of professionals to do so. Those occasions became the exception, rather than the rule.
The "professionals" motivation is to keep information to themselves, unless they can sell it, because information to them is a commodity.
For others diving is a hobby/pastime/passion and we share our information because we genuinely enjoy doing so and form friendships as part of the process. Profit is not a motivation.
And there is the clash of ideologies, which we see being expressed here. What some people do for money/power others do out of enjoyment. The professional tries to protect their turf by claiming the layman is unskilled, and the layman protects their turf by claiming the professional is motivated by money or position.
It takes a pretty centered and secure individual to remain true to their values while still allowing that other contrary values may have merit. Mostly, we polarize.
Solacequest
Registered
Thank you for correcting me Dr. Lecter, I appreciate it, really. I will be absolutely certain to hit space 5 times, and better organize my posts for improved literary flow in the future. I mean what would Hemingway say? I am ashamed.
And yes, MDR is technically the effect immersing the face in cold water has on a certain percentage of the population to lower heart rate and biological oxygen demand. This can allow for greater breath-holding time for some ppl in Cold water environments and allow survival in cold water drowning. It is why "They're not dead until they're warm and dead" is the rule.
Without your post I would not in fact have looked it up again, it has been a few years since I took Wilderness First Responder, Rescue Diver, EMT, and got the degree in Marine Biology. I had forgotten that the breath holding response is actually called the Bradycardic Response, which is symptomatically very similar to MDR, but includes involuntary apnoea that is not specifically present in MDR.
If anyone is curious there is a good abstract here: Bradycardic response during submersion in infant swimming. - PubMed - NCBI
---------- Post added June 28th, 2015 at 09:57 AM ----------
Doh! For the love of GOD I still can not indent. Failure.
---------- Post added June 28th, 2015 at 10:22 AM ----------
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, Lorenziod But nah. I was just being straight up lazy on precision, and perhaps a bit overdramatic. To be more correct the biological INSTINCT does fade with time. But the reflexive URGE to not breath underwater remains. I don't know if that is inborn or learned, like touching hot things. But Kiddo's still gotta be able to mentally get past it in a new situation, like sitting on the bottom of a pool, if the reg fails closed and doesn't give air anymore.
And yes, MDR is technically the effect immersing the face in cold water has on a certain percentage of the population to lower heart rate and biological oxygen demand. This can allow for greater breath-holding time for some ppl in Cold water environments and allow survival in cold water drowning. It is why "They're not dead until they're warm and dead" is the rule.
Without your post I would not in fact have looked it up again, it has been a few years since I took Wilderness First Responder, Rescue Diver, EMT, and got the degree in Marine Biology. I had forgotten that the breath holding response is actually called the Bradycardic Response, which is symptomatically very similar to MDR, but includes involuntary apnoea that is not specifically present in MDR.
If anyone is curious there is a good abstract here: Bradycardic response during submersion in infant swimming. - PubMed - NCBI
---------- Post added June 28th, 2015 at 09:57 AM ----------
Doh! For the love of GOD I still can not indent. Failure.
---------- Post added June 28th, 2015 at 10:22 AM ----------
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, Lorenziod But nah. I was just being straight up lazy on precision, and perhaps a bit overdramatic. To be more correct the biological INSTINCT does fade with time. But the reflexive URGE to not breath underwater remains. I don't know if that is inborn or learned, like touching hot things. But Kiddo's still gotta be able to mentally get past it in a new situation, like sitting on the bottom of a pool, if the reg fails closed and doesn't give air anymore.
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hey Dale I get where you are comeing from but the point of view of a professional (in another industry)I suspect you are missing key components from your post.
On a daily basis I deal with people who don't know what end of the screwdriver to use to tighten a nut and bolt.
Could they learn? In most cases YES. Most of em even figure out its not a screwdriver but a wrench you use on bolts.
The trouble is at that point in time letting them loose with spanners means things get broken.
To quote your example-they would tighten the valve so much that the thread was busted and they were up for a new reg.
So from my POV in response to your post Often it isn't about protecting my income stream so much as protecting the eejuts from themselves.
Now money where mouth is. I used to regularly run "spanner evenings" so that people could learn in a workshop environment how to "fix that hose". Check their own oil,change brake pads,etc. The simple stuff that used to be taught father to son (or daughter)
On a daily basis I deal with people who don't know what end of the screwdriver to use to tighten a nut and bolt.
Could they learn? In most cases YES. Most of em even figure out its not a screwdriver but a wrench you use on bolts.
The trouble is at that point in time letting them loose with spanners means things get broken.
To quote your example-they would tighten the valve so much that the thread was busted and they were up for a new reg.
So from my POV in response to your post Often it isn't about protecting my income stream so much as protecting the eejuts from themselves.
Now money where mouth is. I used to regularly run "spanner evenings" so that people could learn in a workshop environment how to "fix that hose". Check their own oil,change brake pads,etc. The simple stuff that used to be taught father to son (or daughter)
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