Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[Seya]

hey Dale I get where you are comeing from but the point of view of a professional (in another industry)I suspect you are missing key components from your post.
On a daily basis I deal with people who don't know what end of the screwdriver to use to tighten a nut and bolt.
Could they learn? In most cases YES. Most of em even figure out its not a screwdriver but a wrench you use on bolts.
The trouble is at that point in time letting them loose with spanners means things get broken.
To quote your example-they would tighten the valve so much that the thread was busted and they were up for a new reg.
So from my POV in response to your post Often it isn't about protecting my income stream so much as protecting the eejuts from themselves.
Now money where mouth is. I used to regularly run "spanner evenings" so that people could learn in a workshop environment how to "fix that hose". Check their own oil,change brake pads,etc. The simple stuff that used to be taught father to son (or daughter)

So you would ban people from fixing their cars at home? Only magical mechanics that cost over 100 an hour can touch my car? Or its only okay if a professional teaches them. So my dad shouldn't of worked on tractors and trucks with me because he isn't a journeymen mechanic. Man if only the scuba police could start helping people in all the aspects of our lives. No more unlicensed swimming lessons or water pump fixes.

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[DaleC]

Frosty, I hear what you are saying but allowing people too find their own way if they wish, is part of the human experience. Scuba is something of an anomaly in this regard, compared to other outdoor pursuits. Climbing/mountaineering can be said to be as equally prone to mishap and misadventure yet there is no industry control the way there is in SCUBA. Canoeing, white water kayaking, mountain biking... The only other activity that comes close is skydiving and the root causes are the same.

In both diving and skydiving you need something from the professional in order to do it ie. tank fills and airplane rides. Control of these assets is what allows both to mandate behavior. I said this a while ago but heaven help the dive industry when cheap reliable compressors become available. Just like the struggles that online purchasing causes bricks and mortar shops, being able to attain your own fills will almost completely push the dive "professional" out of the loop. It is what has happened in my social circle where a friend runs a compressor in his garage. I haven't needed a shop for anything in several years. When that day comes diving will become like climbing, hiking, boating, base jumping, spelunking and a host of other " at risk" activities that people can pursue without a professional insisting they oversee them.

Go onto a mountain biking forum and argue against selling grandpa a bike because he wanted to teach his kids how to ride and see what occurs. Suggest that only professional instructors have the capacity for that. And the risk of injury/capita is way higher for that activity. The dive industry gets away with it because they have created a false reality regarding the hazards of diving and because they control access so their message gets repeated every time the diver needs a fill. What happens on SB is that this message gets challenged by others, which does not occur when the owner controls the shop.

A good example of this that is close is freediving. Once a diver learns the basics and has a grasp of the core concepts, they need never take further instruction or step foot into a shop again. Professional oversight is a choice, not a need, if they want further mentoring to refine some aspect of their performance.

 

[Lorenzoid]

No.
What you may hear is disdain for an industry that has sought to monetize every aspect of diving by creating a fear based approach and assuming people are too stupid to even learn how to tie their shoelaces without some form of "professional guidance". You probably need professional instruction to perform brain surgery but it is entirely optional when preparing a salad.

There may also be a hint of disdain for so called professionals that can go from zero to hero without even doing moderately difficult dives outside a guided classroom environment and then presume to be the gatekeepers for others.

I believe fear is good. It keeps us out of trouble. In lots of endeavors, not just scuba. As far as scuba is concerned, it scares the hell out of me, and I think that is a good thing. Every time I am down there I remember this is an alien environment, and if I screw up, I can die. Breathing underwater is not like making a salad in the kitchen. It may not be brain surgery, either. But it lies on the dangerous end of activities in my opinion. Some people commenting here seem to think they always know better than anyone else, and they especially want to think they know better than someone who holds himself out as having expertise in a field. Some sort of anti-authority thing, perhaps? You can't go through life assuming every one of those persons is a charlatan. I assume such a person knows better than I do until proven otherwise.

Good instructors who take pride in their study, yet respect the possible knowledge of others and who provide a balanced approach to what and how one should learn have no problem gaining respect from me.

Well sure, on an individual basis. But I hear overtones in this thread of no need ever for formal instruction, period. Scuba, swimming, driving, primary education, etc. The father can always teach the son better than anyone else. No dad is ever a poor or even dangerous teacher. Never mind the idea that individual instructors may differ from each other. Ah, well, maybe what I am hearing is all in my head.

 

[NAM001]

Seya and frosty.

I don't think this may be an issue of trying to push one opinion on another as much as one not being equipped to have their own opinion. We have over the decades dumbed down society to the point that with todays technology and yesterdays technology with lost/abandoned skills have left us all neutered socially, to do anything for our selves. For instance how many can make change for a dollar without a cash register. how many can change their own tire. The younger generations have been taught that its too tough to do correctly on your own and if you do you are liable for the results to the first suit happy passerby. Requiring a professional is how you pass the liability buck to someone else. You cant walk your dog for fear you are disturbing someones peace. You cant change a light switch in your own home. You cant mow your own lawn or use your own learned skills. In this case perhaps its an issue of an older person that, though out of practice, knows what he wants to do is no biggy if done with in the constraints of what he plans. My grandfather in his country was taught to swim by being tossed overboard. Yes overboard from a boat. You either sank or swim. seldom did anyone sink and have to suffer the embarrasement of being hooked and pulled back to the boat. Learning was serious and required a full effort to literally survive. With grandpa, I kinda of wonder if the BCD was even functional after so many years. if not then there is not much that can happen if reasonable prepared for. My first breath on a reg was with the tank on the pool concrete with the reg hanging in the water. My head was probably a foot under water and I thought it was so cool. Even holding my breath coming up would not result in a trip to the hospital. I learned to drive in a harvested bean field. It was bumpy and that is what kept the speed down. You could not go fast enough to flip the truck. Prior to trucks I drove tractors on the farm. No matter what you do, and at what age,, you pick up skills. When and if this grand-dads grandkids take a formal scuba class. The kids will be probably bored and will glide right through the class and probably be better divers, at least in their beginning years. Professionals are nice , especially when they are in the water with a group instructing because one of their necessary skills is managing a group. A one on one is quite different. The kid gets 100% attention. Probably more than enough for the given in water situation. Once again guessing on facts not known.


Her is something from the musical paint your wagon

Artist: Paint Your Wagon Album: Musical/Ost Title: The First Thing You Know God made the mountains God made the sky God made the people God knows why He fixed up the planet As best as He could Then in come the people And gum it up good The first thing you know They civilized the foothills And every weary put hills The mountains and valley below They come along and take 'em And civilize and make 'em A place where no civilized Person would go The first thing you know The first thing you know They civilize what's pretty By puttin' up a city Where nothin' that's Pretty can grow They muddy up the winter And civilize it, into a place Too uncivilized Even for snow The first thing you know They civilize left They civilize right Till nothing is left Till nothing is right They civilize freedom Till no one is free No one except By coincidence, me The first thing you know The boozer's in prison And the criminally isn't And only the rascals have gone When I see a parson I gotta put my arson in A wagon that follows the tail of a crow The first thing you know I pick up a growl The first thing you know

 

[DaleC]

I guess we are different in that regard. I do not fear diving and feel very natural when I do it. I have learned a technique that allows me to do so week in and week out and as long as I adhere to few simple parameters I don't think much can really go wrong, outside circumstances I don't control (great white attack, heart attack etc...).

Again, the disdain is not against professionals et al. It is against the notion that they have a "rite" to regulate the behavior of others or that only they have the capacity for correct instruction. In the OP's case the debate is whether she overstepped her boundaries by foisting her belief of what was right onto a customer by denying them a service they were otherwise legally entitled to obtain. There is no mandate for a professional to do this, it was a choice.

If we say it is the instructors duty to interject, where does it end? When they see an obese diver? An old diver? A solo diver? A smoking diver? An OW diver who says they are going to dive a site that is more than 60' deep? And what about maintaining those same standards. If I see an old, obese instructor can I have his license revoked to prevent him/her from engaging in their activity?

 

[NAM001]

You are so right Dale. And once again it is not so much the situation but the principle involved.

I guess we are different in that regard. I do not fear diving and feel very natural when I do it. I have learned a technique that allows me to do so week in and week out and as long as I adhere to few simple parameters I don't think much can really go wrong, outside circumstances I don't control (great white attack, heart attack etc...).

Again, the disdain is not against professionals et al. It is against the notion that they have a "rite" to regulate the behavior of others or that only they have the capacity for correct instruction. In the OP's case the debate is whether she overstepped her boundaries by foisting her belief of what was right onto a customer by denying them a service they were otherwise legally entitled to obtain. There is no mandate for a professional to do this, it was a choice.

If we say it is the instructors duty to interject, where does it end? When they see an obese diver? An old diver? A solo diver? A smoking diver? An OW diver who says they are going to dive a site that is more than 60' deep? And what about maintaining those same standards. If I see an old, obese instructor can I have his license revoked to prevent him/her from engaging in their activity?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I said this a while ago but heaven help the dive industry when cheap reliable compressors become available. Just like the struggles that online purchasing causes bricks and mortar shops, being able to attain your own fills will almost completely push the dive "professional" out of the loop.

Some of us have embraced this concept and it really helps in getting out and diving on your own schedule without having to pre-plan when you want to dive.

That said I don't see professionals being completely pushed out - there will still need to be classes for those that need it and those that want to advance to technical levels. As well as the dive boats that required some additional plastic to cover insurance. Vacation divers will still need lots of services and keep dive shops and professionals busy. But the grip of the LDS and those professionals that support it may need to adapt in ways they have not begun to imagine... I hope in a good way - I am not wishing ill will on the dive industry.

 

[bl6394]

Scuba is "industry" regulated. Few laws have been passed that restricts our activity. Sure the argument could be made that scuba professionals are trying to restrict access to service and or training - strictly for profit. But there is also the consideration that injuries or accidents are bad for the industry and could lead to closing off dive sites and more governmental intrusion.

Personally - I could care less if a person tries to maintain their own gear. My MK17 / G250V or Hollis DC1 / 212 is easier to service than the brakes on my truck. More power too ya - you'll either do a good job - or not. Any consequences are yours to bear.

I'm less happy about that same guy offering to help his buddy out. Did he use silicone lubricant on a cylinder valve that would be used in oxygen service? Did he overtorque the screws on that A700 - and wreck an expensive second stage... Now someone else is going to bear the consequences of an untrained person's action.

I'm least excited about these circumstances when kids are involved and their uncertified parents are offering training in anything from a pool to a cave. 99% f the time - there will be no problem. (Some small percentage %) of the time - you'll see injured ears or worse. I'm sad about the consequences to the kids - and it does nothing to promote scuba as a safe / fun activity. In the worst case - it may cause the government to step in and regulate the activity.

I'm a big fan of personal freedoms - but those freedoms should be tempered when there are risks to others and the health of the scuba industry.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I'm a big fan of personal freedoms - but those freedoms should be tempered with their are risks to others and the health of the scuba industry.

We could make it like alcohol - 21 years old - be an adult and then you dive because only an adult can handle the responsibility. No one under the age of 21 to be on compressed air - I can see that as a huge boon for Scuba and what a hit Freediving would take... Sheesh

 

[bl6394]

We could make it like alcohol - 21 years old - be an adult and then you dive because only an adult can handle the responsibility. No one under the age of 21 to be on compressed air - I can see that as a huge boon for Scuba and what a hit Freediving would take... Sheesh

BRD - We should just leave decisions like this up to you.