AOW? Joke? Meaningless?

[Russoft]

I haven't done my AOW yet. Most places I've dived take me on dives way beyond what an OW is certified for anyway, so it's not like I'm "missing out" on deep dives (frankly, I prefer shallow dives where I can see pretty colors). I've done enough reading that it's doubtful I'll learn more from the bookwork for AOW. I would probably benefit from new skills, but honestly I have no motivation for AOW except that it's the doorway to OTHER interesting training. With that amount of money, I can go diving 10 more times on my own (just me and a buddy) and in the process learn how to actually plan to carry out dives without a dive master leading me by the hand. My perspective might be different if half the dives I've ever logged weren't below 20 meters.

 

[stuartv]

I have no motivation for AOW except that it's the doorway to OTHER interesting training.

I didn't do AOW and I've taken any and all additional the training I wanted. Wreck, Deep, Dry Suit, Nitrox, etc.. I'm starting Into to Tech tomorrow. And I will take Rescue sometime in the next few months, too, I think.

All without taking AOW.

 

[NAM001]

Not piciking fights here. When i took rescue a prereq was AOW When i took my first tech course ther prereq's was AOW and nitrox. But then its all in the instructor.

I didn't do AOW and I've taken any and all additional the training I wanted. Wreck, Deep, Dry Suit, Nitrox, etc.. I'm starting Into to Tech tomorrow. And I will take Rescue sometime in the next few months, too, I think.

All without taking AOW.

 

[stuartv]

Not piciking fights here. When i took rescue a prereq was AOW When i took my first tech course ther prereq's was AOW and nitrox. But then its all in the instructor.

It may be a prereq ... IF you choose to do Rescue or a tech course through PADI.... It is not a prereq for Rescue with SDI or Intro to Tech with TDI.

You meet the prereqs for SDI Rescue by having OW plus 40 dives (OR AOW, so you CAN get in with only 9 dives, I guess). So, a PADI OW card plus 40 dives will get you into SDI Rescue (with no AOW in sight).

 

[NAM001]

This topic has always bene a heated one. One in which advocates for "OW can do it all" is ususlly backed by MY STUDENTS IN OW LEARN..... AND ARE ALL AS GOOD AS . Reality is that those are not the average instructor's. They are the ones that push to get the student the most for their buck. There are many of them here. I dont notice that level of commitment in instructors when it comes to the ones I cross paths with. Many classes excluding movie time could be done in a matter of a few hours. If it were not for the agency saying dives over x amount of days you could get an OW quicker than it takes to get a shower. The bulk of students I meet seem to reflect the same observations in both conversation and in skills. When I see any card I look at it (some what ignorantly) as something that represents the minimum achieved (by what ever means) set of skills an instructor could get a student to pass. I seems that FOR OW, either you have skills or you can remove and replace your mask, recover a reg clear it and use it again, blow to the surface and cesa from 10 ft or pool max depth, and have never been below 25-30 ft. One actually did the cesa and mask skills in open water at <5 ft because the student did not feel good about doint it deeper. Would you think that those folks should be dumped in the ocean on a 100 ft dive based on the card they are carrying? Even the agencies recognize this cause they tell the students to stay shallower than 60 ft upon completion of training untill further training. When i see a AOW card i see a card of a student that by course design can dive 60-100 ft has some navigation skills, has functional buoyancy and trim, and is supposed to be somewhat of a responsible and effective buddy in less than pool water visibility conditions. The boats know this, just look at the waivers you have to sign. Although they dont cover being landed on by a jet liner, if someone told me that they saw one I would not doubt it. Seldom does anyone ever present a master or dm card but many have them, so they are not even in the picture. At least with an AOW card I view the diver as having at least a couple of dives deeper than 40-60 ft. Once again shouldnt that be expected on dives to 100 ft?

My opinion if you have the skills get the card that says that. If you CAN do the dive get the card, If you DO the dive get the stamp.

Is AOW meaningless. NO it is a statement of something beyone absolute minimum skills and a portal to further training.

 

[cbm32]

An AOW card represents a minimum amount of knowledge/skills attained and demonstrated. If you have not demonstrated such, you shouldn't get the card, and if you can demonstrate them, you should get the card.

Now, if you CAN demonstrate having that knowledge and possessing the requisite skills, why should you have to pay for being taught stuff you already know or to do things you can already do? Of course, you shouldn't.

I hear some saying that if that is the case, you should have to pay the full amount anyway and basically design an upgraded course so that you do learn more than you already do. Well, that IS one way to make sure you get value for your money. Not the only way, and perhaps for some not the best way, but it is a way.

For me, AOW was pretty much a waste of money, other than getting the card I may need to dive in some areas/with some dive ops. I would have much preferred to pay a reduced rate and "tested out" of AOW. Give me a test (oral or written) and have me do a dive in which I demonstrate the requisite skills and give me my card. If I fail at any of the knowledge/skills, teach them to me and charge me for whatever time it takes to teach me those limited aspects instead of reteaching me a lot of stuff I already know.

I realize that this approach could result in reduced opportunities for instructors to make money, but if the real goal is to assure that divers have the specified knowledge/skills, this should not be a consideration. If AOW is more a money grab than anything else.....well, it shouldn't be. Of course PADI (or some other agency) is always going to get their cut with no reduction at all.....haven't figured out a way to solve that problem yet.

 

[dmaziuk]

The other skill my instructor had us do was calculate bottom time. You can make a AL 80 last for 45-60 minutes at 45-60 feet, but try doing that at 100 feet. You will be out of air in 20 minutes. The point is to be aware that the deeper you go not only invites narcosis but that you consume air at a much faster rate. We actually sat at the bottom at 100 feet for 2-3 minutes and watched the PSI drop over that time.

If you needed to sit at the bottom and watch the SPG for that, then you failed to read (and/or comprehend) your OW manual and should've failed the OW class. Also your middle school physics. As for gas planning, where did you get your SAC/RMV? Or do you mean you planned your gas after your dive?

 

[NAM001]

Testing out is not an option, so that is n ot a valid argument. your position is that if you can drive a car or operate a semi truck why shoujld i get a drivers license and or endorcement. The card is not to tell you of your training abilities its to document to OTHERS you trained abilities. It is fortunate for you that AOW was a waste of your time, Yes i agree that there would be a large market for a testing out AOW card. I think if you go to an nstructor with an OW and other certs that qualify for the adventure exosure requirements you should be able to test out. It is already being done under the table. Your point of haveing for dive ops tha require it is as good of a reason as there is to have one. To be honest I admire the ops that require proof of training fo the dive being planned. Whwether money grab is a reason no9t to get it or not, that is up to you. ins companies do nt have such a casual position on certifications.

An AOW card represents a minimum amount of knowledge/skills attained and demonstrated. If you have not demonstrated such, you shouldn't get the card, and if you can demonstrate them, you should get the card.

Now, if you CAN demonstrate having that knowledge and possessing the requisite skills, why should you have to pay for being taught stuff you already know or to do things you can already do? Of course, you shouldn't.

I hear some saying that if that is the case, you should have to pay the full amount anyway and basically design an upgraded course so that you do learn more than you already do. Well, that IS one way to make sure you get value for your money. Not the only way, and perhaps for some not the best way, but it is a way.

For me, AOW was pretty much a waste of money, other than getting the card I may need to dive in some areas/with some dive ops. I would have much preferred to pay a reduced rate and "tested out" of AOW. Give me a test (oral or written) and have me do a dive in which I demonstrate the requisite skills and give me my card. If I fail at any of the knowledge/skills, teach them to me and charge me for whatever time it takes to teach me those limited aspects instead of reteaching me a lot of stuff I already know.

I realize that this approach could result in reduced opportunities for instructors to make money, but if the real goal is to assure that divers have the specified knowledge/skills, this should not be a consideration. If AOW is more a money grab than anything else.....well, it shouldn't be. Of course PADI (or some other agency) is always going to get their cut with no reduction at all.....haven't figured out a way to solve that problem yet.

 

[stuartv]

When i see a AOW card i see a card of a student that by course design can dive 60-100 ft has some navigation skills, has functional buoyancy and trim, and is supposed to be somewhat of a responsible and effective buddy in less than pool water visibility conditions. ... At least with an AOW card I view the diver as having at least a couple of dives deeper than 40-60 ft. Once again shouldnt that be expected on dives to 100 ft?

My opinion if you have the skills get the card that says that. If you CAN do the dive get the card, If you DO the dive get the stamp.

Is AOW meaningless. NO it is a statement of something beyone absolute minimum skills and a portal to further training.

The AOW minimums mean that the student did at least 1 dive to at least 61'. So, assuming more than that is just that - an assumption - and not justified, based on the PADI standards. Similar for assuming they have "some navigation skills". The requirements are that they did 1 U/W Nav dive. Assuming they have "some navigation skills" based on that seems a bit tenuous. Reading the first chapter of a Physics book doesn't mean a person knows "some physics." And I don't see any requirements of AOW to justify an assumption of functional buoyancy and trim.

You could get an AOW card by having 9 dives under your belt, where one dive is to 61', one dive has some U/W Nav component, and the other 3 are about coral reef conservation, fish identification, and being an underwater naturalist.

If you think seeing someone holding that card allows you to make ANY assumptions about the depth or breadth of that diver's knowledge or skills (beyond they did 1 dive to 61' and they saw a compass once), I think, well, that's pretty funny.

But, the funniest thing to me is if it's actually true that insurance companies give a hoot about whether divers have this card when they go out on a boat for a dive that "requires Advanced." If the insurance companies actually believe that having AOW somehow gives them (the insurance company) more protection against claims, I'd say PADI's Marketing Department should all get a bonus! More likely it's just a way for the insurance companies to get out of paying claims - i.e. a loophole they can exploit. "Sorry, Captain Bill. You didn't make sure the dead guy had an AOW card. It doesn't matter that he was a Tech diver with 2000 dives. He didn't have an AOW card, so we're not paying for the lawsuit from his family."

The longer this thread goes, the more I DO think PADI AOW is a joke. I'm not saying that every AOW course out there is a joke. I am SURE that there are instructors out there that actually really teach their AOW students a lot. But, that's beside the point. The point is that the AOW minimum standards are so, umm, "light" that just seeing the card doesn't really - to ME - mean anything more than that they have done at least 9 dives, total, counting their original 4 OW training dives. Ceding someone the title of "Advanced" based on meeting those standards does seem to be kind of a joke - to me.

In other words, if I were running a dive charter boat taking people on dives that I thought should require "Advanced", the credentials I would require would be more than just seeing an AOW card - as the AOW card by itself doesn't mean ANYTHING, in terms of whether someone is competent and capable of doing an "advanced" dive. Maybe they had a great class and ARE capable - but I would have no basis to ASSUME that just because they have the card.

Who here actually thinks a person with 9 dives, one of which was to 61' and all the others were less, one dive for U/W Nav, and 3 dives for coral reef conservation, fish identification, and underwater naturalism, should be ASSUMED to be competent to go out on a boat, in 5' seas in the Atlantic, and dive in a current, to a wreck that is 115' down?

As far as I can tell, that's how things actually are. The dive companies in the Outer Banks just say "requires Advanced" to do exactly what I just described. Go down there and get on a boat. IF they even ask, you can show them your AOW card and you're good to go.

And that is an example, to me, illustrating that AOW is a joke. Maybe even a deadly joke.

 

[Skittl1321]

BTDT, have not done a night drift boat dive.

I've done that one! It was an easier dive than my "sit on this platform and try not to get lost in the zero vis" OW cert dives were.


I would like to take AOW only because it is a pre-requisite for rescue, and I think my diving could greatly benefit from rescue. I am not a confident diver, and my understanding is that rescue helps teach you a lot about taking care of yourself too.

However, I will not dive past 75 feet. Ever. So that means no AOW.

And despite PADI saying it isn't required, every shop I see requires AOW to do rescue, so that is closed off to me as well.