Anxiety Management

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Trust me dives are deadly and a big no-no. Busting thirds on a circuit or traverse that haven't been personally setup and verified recently is dangerous.

Two years ago an exit at Peacock Springs Cave System was temporarily blocked due to a boulder falling in. If someone blew thirds to do that traverse, without first checking it, they would have been in a bad situation.

John, you dodged a bullet. I hope you realize that.

And just because you're with a guide doesn't mean that you're safe to do a trust me dive. You have to have some personal responsibility on the dive.

Personal assessment of the Calimba deaths
 
OK, look guys. Apparently I can't make a point as eloquently as Kelly and other people.
I bet a lot of the beginners that read the board look up to guys like John and Pete. What they have 'learned' is this thread is, that it's not a big deal to plan and do dive like this and that it's Ok in Mexico because the caves are shallow and have more exits. It is a big deal though, people have got themselves killed due to sloppy planing and unnecessarily risky stuff like this. Believe it or not, it really worries me when instructors of all people make statements like this and then make excuses.
I'm sorry if somebody feels offended by what I said, but I don't think that I was more rude than Pete. At least not in this thread.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2016 at 02:29 PM ----------

Pete, I thought you were attacking me in post 16. I apologize if I got that wrong.
 
I bet a lot of the beginners that read the board look up to guys like John and Pete. What they have 'learned' is this thread is, that it's not a big deal to plan and do dive like this and that it's Ok in Mexico because the caves are shallow and have more exits.
I don't think that's the final walk away here. I really don't. I think it's important to point out mistakes, but I think it's bad to rake people over the coals for admitted mistakes, even if they don't realize the extent or ramifications. Why? Because people don't like and will refuse to post their issues/mistakes/dives if we bash the crap out of anyone who does. What a newbie really learns in a bash-a-thon is to refrain from posting about their dives lest they too become an object of someone's ire.

Pete, I thought you were attacking me in post 16. I apologize if I got that wrong.
That truly wasn't my intent, and I apologize for my communications skills if you felt that way. I kind of held back all of my feelings and that probably clouded my intent. Here is the OT context: While I was at Cave Country Dive Shop a guy I had never met was admiring my Sprinter. I'm incredibly proud about what I've done with it and don't mind showing it off. He then asked me how I could find all the time to devote to it, which made it obvious that he had no clue who I was. I asked him if he had ever heard of ScubaBoard and his descriptors were like a punch in the face. To him it was a place filled with strife, rumors and non stop bickering. He even told me that GI3 makes sure to slap down each and every non DIR diver with impunity. Imagine his surprise when I told him what I do and that GI3 (he actually thought his first name was Mike) has never posted here, much less slapped anyone around. No, he had never been to SB, but his instructor was pretty adamant about how bad it was. His instructor had also told him all about how unsafe Rob Neto, Ed Sorenson, Capt Jim Wyatt and other instructors were as well. Wow. The cave politic, rumor mill and gossip guild is alive and well but it can't withstand being on any forum. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the rumor mongers have the sticker "Dive more, post less" on their vehicles. They certainly don't want their vicious gossip traced back to them! Consequently, you won't find me jumping into any bash-a-thon simply because I think they are unhealthy and I certainly don't want to be a part of "them". Don't take my reticence as support for any decision or dive mentioned here on the forums. Hopefully this clarifies my thoughts. If not, PM me so we don't silt out this thread on anxiety any more. Before you ask, I won't divulge the diver's or his instructor's name for the very same reasons.

Trust me dives are deadly and a big no-no. Busting thirds on a circuit or traverse that haven't been personally setup and verified recently is dangerous.
What a great way to state it. [gentle sarcasm]No demands being made of John to answer for his obvious crimes against humanity and caves in general. [/gentle sarcasm] The caveats are great in this context as well. On a forum, just as in a cave, it's important not to cause or increase anxiety. We want to promote communication and not shut it down.
 
Netdoc. John gave an example of anxiety and that we can all experience it. I do not think the discussion is about that. John as I read it never said that there was anything wrong with his planning or with the choice he made. Just that it worked for him. I am not one to judge how wise the dive was. But John's comments can give the impression that it was a reasonable dive to do and that is what the discussion is now about.
 
If you weren't there, then you weren't there. You can't possibly know all the mitigating circumstances involved. I have chosen my guides well when I dive the cenotes. If you want a guide that won't tolerate you doing a 'trust me' dive, then PM me and I'll give you Natalie, aka Mighty Mouse's contact info. Even then, my first dive with Nat was barely a cavern dive. They got progressively more serious as we went. Was she testing me or was I testing her? Both. I don't/won't trust most Mexican guides, just as I don't/won't trust most American guides or instructors. Trust in a cave is something that's earned or lost in the cave. I've heard/read things that makes my eye brow arch. I've heard/read things that impress the hell out of me. But then, trust in a cave is something that's earned or lost in the cave. I don't care what the world thinks about you. I won't make that decision until we talk person to person and even then I'll with hold any decisions until after we dive.

I am glad you have found a guide that you use and trust. I have been to Mexico many times, and I have seen, and been asked to do things that aren't acceptable. In all endeavors it is caveat emptor, and sounds like you are being smart in shopping for the right fit. I will still hold onto my PADI arm chair quarterback cert- since I have done a lot of guided dives in Mexico, plus guide numerous systems in Florida.
 
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Netdoc. John gave an example of anxiety and that we can all experience it. I do not think the discussion is about that. John as I read it never said that there was anything wrong with his planning or with the choice he made. Just that it worked for him. I am not one to judge how wise the dive was. But John's comments can give the impression that it was a reasonable dive to do and that is what the discussion is now about.

I'm a new cave diver. When I first read John's post I thought "That's not how we learned to do a circuit in cave class" and "no wonder that makes you anxious". I was glad to see the subsequent posts confirming that this is indeed not an ok thing to do, at least if it happened as it appeared to have from the description of the dive.
 
Well, I have been away for a while and will be away again for a while.

Yes, I did screw up. The circuit was well known and clearly described, so we should have had no trouble with it. It should not have been a problem, and it was not a problem. What was unexpected was that it was not properly marked. It was apparently not clear from my post was that I realized during the dive that I had screwed up by trusting the wealth of information I had prior to the dive, information that turned out to be perfectly correct. I postd this knowing I would get this criticism, so if it makes you feel good, go for it. Pile it on. Call me whatever you wish. Have fun.
 
Well, I have been away for a while and will be away again for a while.

Yes, I did screw up. The circuit was well known and clearly described, so we should have had no trouble with it. It should not have been a problem, and it was not a problem. What was unexpected was that it was not properly marked. It was apparently not clear from my post was that I realized during the dive that I had screwed up by trusting the wealth of information I had prior to the dive, information that turned out to be perfectly correct. I postd this knowing I would get this criticism, so if it makes you feel good, go for it. Pile it on. Call me whatever you wish. Have fun.
Thanks for the clarification. I was pretty certain you learned from this, but it's great to get it straight from you. Have fun in Cave Country!

FWIW, I started that thread I was talking about. It's entitled The Cave Politics, Rumor Monger and Gossip Mill is alive and well. Let's end it!
 
John, there is no such thing as a 'well known circuit' unless YOU know it well, so please stop calling it that.
You should also not expect 'properly marked' line, unless you've put the markers in youself or at least confirmed the makers yourself, you never know if somebody changed or stole markers the day before or an hour before your dive.
By saying you 'should have had no trouble', you are setting a bad example... some people reading this will take what you say as gospel because you are a tec instructor and, at least on SB, well known.

And lastly, there is tons and tons of cave in Mexico, so there is still lots of new cave for you to see without doing circuits and traverses.

I tried to put it super-nicely, so people don't think I'm 'piling on'.

BTW: If you cave dive on vacation, there is not much point in doing circuits and traverses anyway since you have to setup those dives and instead of doing 1 or two setup dives I'd rather go and see something new. Just my 2 euro cents.
 
The direction this thread has taken causes me a bit of concern. One thing that DOES NOT bother me is John’s account of his Mexico cave experience, which I think is as ‘real world’ as it gets. I will come back to that, but will first explain what bothers me.

1. Bennno’s comment, asking John if he thought it was a well-planned dive, was legitimate, but it clearly suggested a poster bias that it was NOT.
2. Pete’s post, which I understand now, but which could have been interpreted to be a criticism of Bennno’s post (and that was my initial take, quite frankly).
3. Bennno’s reply, that he felt like he was being called an ‘a-hole’ (never stated in any previous post, by anyone), and that Pete was somehow simply posting to ‘defend your buddy’ simply escalated the issue, and appeared to be, for the most part, a bit reactionary.
4. John’s reply, was also a bit peevish at the end (the 'piling on' part, and seemed, at least to me, to be out of character.

So, where did communication fail? Hard to define a turning point. I am very pleased that John posted his experience. Honestly, I have been in similar situations before, and I have lived to tell about them. And, I have learned things from them that I might not have learned otherwise. And everyone – new diver, new cave diver, experienced diver and caver - can learn from that post.

Perhaps, the better question for John would be, ‘What did YOU learn from the experience that you would apply in the future?’ And, if John returns to thread after his next week away, I would love for him to post a reply.

From my perspective – and I was not there, I wasn’t involved in the planning, I have never dived with John, or met him (and can hardly consider him a ‘buddy’ who I should defend) - it sounds like a great deal of planning DID go into the dive. I could be wrong, and may be reading more into his description than is justified. I base my presumption on both his description, as it appears to relate to situations that I have encountered, and a presumption about John – based on his many thoughtful, insightful, and informative posts, I have come to see him as an experienced, moderately conservative diver, who thinks through things carefully. As I noted, I could be wrong, and he might be a careless, out-of-control, redneck cowboy diver. But, I don’t think so. So, when he says he planned the dive, I presume a lot of thought went into that process.

Taking this outside of diving, when ‘I wore a younger man’s clothes’ (to paraphrase a popular song), my climbing partner and I did a number of serious, multi-pitch routes, that we had never been on before, and where we planned our climb – gear needed, time to summit, descent route, etc. – on extensive reading of available climbing guides, discussions with other climbers who had done the route before, and a realistic (aka usually conservative) assessment of our own abilities and skills. It simply wasn’t possible to do every route first with another climber who had done it before (and, downclimbing a route was, in not a few cases, not as easy an option as simply turning a dive and retreating to the entrance). And, yes, we had a few stories of our own, where things didn’t go as planned, where we were faced with considerable uncertainty about whether we were on or off route, and anxiety about what to do, where we avoided catastrophe primarily by reasoned decision-making (and, maybe even by a bit of good fortune in a few cases) and lived to tell the story. I even used one of those stories as a case study basis for a seminar on decision-making (in patient care) that i conducted for health care professionals in my former life as an academic.

If someone chooses not to dive a cave circuit without first doing it ‘live’ with a diver who has done it before, that is great. Sound, conservative judgement. If someone chooses to abide by the rule of thirds, without apparent exception, that is great. Sound, conservative judgement. But, for me the most valuable lesson is how John and his buddy handled their anxiety, when they thought they were on route, but doubt began to creep in, and anxiety increased. That is, unfortunately, one of the OP's questions that was not fully answered in John's post.

Personally, I think it would be great if more divers, newer divers, cavers, etc., read his post. It doesn’t set a bad example; if anything it sets a good one, about how one may deal with anxiety. It does not suggest that he and his buddy ‘got away with’ anything, including poor preparation. Rather, it was a real world lesson, that sometimes you encounter the unexpected, where all available information is not consistent, and you may need to make a tough decision. I would like to better understand how John and his buddy made their decision to continue when they reached their first third, NOT simply imply criticism of what they did, without knowing more. I may, or may not, have done exactly what he did. But, there was nothing in his post that suggested poor planning. What he didn’t have during the dive was line marker data (presumably expected) to easily confirm the fact that they were on plan, which as it turned out, they apparently were. But, I presume they had other visual data (unique features, turns, etc.) to offset the absence of line marker data. I think the better question is the follow-up to one that was poised:
sebach:
are you telling us that you went farther than your thirds on a circuit, without personal recent knowledge of the end of the circuit, relying of the (un)present markers and your recollection of the topography based only on your preparation?
I suspect there were data available, beyond line markers. If divers never proceeded beyond existing line markers, we would have a lot fewer routes available for others.

I have done dives where I planned them thoroughly, and things just didn’t go as planned. In some cases I retreated. In other cases I didn’t. In most cases, anxiety crept into my thinking (John’s actual point) and I was forced to deal with it. And, that was a key point in the very first post in this thread.
 
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