AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[DustyC]

Yeah, an instructor would say that. You can't be for real.
Agengies certify many incompetend instructors who than sell crappy couses to trusting customers and it's all the divers fault who 'created' the situation? Really?

PADI/SSI/etc. could have higher standards and they could have a quality management system, they choose not to do it in order to sell more product!

Many customer trust their instructors/agencies because they don't know any better, that's why they taking couses... and many times they are being taken advantage off. Looks at all the crappy SM course being sold, it's all just the customers fault?

In a way, yes. In my town there are less than 5 shops, all but one do the typical 6 nights of pool/class time and 2 days in OW. The one does no class time and about a day total in water.

It's half the price of the others, perspective students usually know the differences and choose the quickie shop. I blame the shop for offering it, I blame the students for choosing it.

 

[Edward3c]

It took me 11 years to earn my advance diver award: that was 3rd Class to Dive Leader and eventually Advanced Diver - all BSAC.

I've walked away from operators that don't do check out dives. How else can I evaluate the operator.

 

[Damselfish]

While I don't doubt many students are only concerned with the quickest or cheapest way to get certified, I do think it's not always 100% their fault for not doing better. People don't know what they don't know yet. The marketing will give them no reason to think the results of getting the same certification card from a major agency can vary so much. If all they're exposed to is the bottom end of training, they might not learn it there (unless maybe it's bad enough.) You might think in this day someone would research it thoroughly on-line before starting. But believe it or not, there are plenty of people who won't in any significant way. Some people still don't do much of that or just aren't very good at it - hard to fathom by people who do and spend lots of time on a scuba message board, but yes they're still out there. Maybe they look to see which of the 2 dive shops in town gets better reviews on Yelp and think they've done their homework.

So there is still something to be said for raising the bar, rather than just saying people should choose better.

 

[Bennno]

In a way, yes. In my town there are less than 5 shops, all but one do the typical 6 nights of pool/class time and 2 days in OW. The one does no class time and about a day total in water.

It's half the price of the others, perspective students usually know the differences and choose the quickie shop. I blame the shop for offering it, I blame the students for choosing it.

In that case, I agree with you. If there is less choice though most people, especially beginners, will probably trust that the 'pro' knows what he is talking about. Lots of people also trust a big brand like PADI, I would imagine.

 

[Darnold9999]

I am still a bit bewildered by the idea that a check out dive - particularly in a remote location is considered unnecessary by some people. My training was almost 35 years ago - at the time it was excellent, a six week course taught by the University safety diver. But that was 35 years ago and I can remember exactly nothing about that particular course now. The card is completely irrelevant. Much more important is that I have actually been diving recently in various conditions, but how could anyone evaluate that without seeing me in the water. If I am in a remote area of the world diving with others I want someone to at least do a minimal evaluation of their skills before dropping us all into a challenging dive. I don't want to have to rescue some idiot, nor do I want my extremely expensive vacation ruined by that same idiot diving beyond their ability and hurting themselves so we need to head back into port. I just don't get the attitude that my little plastic card should signify anything but a vague idea of where my skills could be.

 

[Neilwood]

I am still a bit bewildered by the idea that a check out dive - particularly in a remote location is considered unnecessary by some people. My training was almost 35 years ago - at the time it was excellent, a six week course taught by the University safety diver. But that was 35 years ago and I can remember exactly nothing about that particular course now. The card is completely irrelevant. Much more important is that I have actually been diving recently in various conditions, but how could anyone evaluate that without seeing me in the water. If I am in a remote area of the world diving with others I want someone to at least do a minimal evaluation of their skills before dropping us all into a challenging dive. I don't want to have to rescue some idiot, nor do I want my extremely expensive vacation ruined by that same idiot diving beyond their ability and hurting themselves so we need to head back into port. I just don't get the attitude that my little plastic card should signify anything but a vague idea of where my skills could be.

Agreed.

To my mind - all the certificate proves (irrespective of the level of certificate or agency that provided it) is that at some point you passed a minimum standard for a certain course on that date. For a dive operation that has never met you or seen you in the water I would be worried if they accepted it as "gold standard" ie that all the divers were still diving exactly in accordance with the training that they possibly got 10 years ago. A diver can say they have been diving recently to XX metres in such and such conditions with a certain configuration of equipment last week but in reality they might not have been in the water for a year or more.

Ask 100 divers (away from SB where the bias is significantly towards advanced rec & tec) about whether they perform a full buddy check prior to splashing and whether they do any skills practise at their safety stop. I can almost guarantee that a lot will answer that they don't, some will answer that they do but watch them in the water and I bet a significant amount of them don't.

Now if I am the DM in charge of them in the water, I think I would want to know who is
a) diving in accordance with training and safe
b) reasonably safe but needs an eye kept on them
c) in need of a lot of attention due to inexperience or poor training
d) dangerous to those around them with the way they dive.

Can I do that looking at a card?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

What's critical is the instructor's interpretation of "mastery", when assessing performance standards.

There's three ways if looking at it:

1) Sufficient skill to 'tick off' a skill and move on with the syllabus.

2) Sufficient skill to assure diver competency at the current level and training conditions.

3) Sufficient skill to assure the diver is fully competent at the current level AND has a foundation for future development.

PADI define 'mastery' as fluid, comfortable and repeatable.

How many divers truly feel that about their skills on graduation from a training course?

To what context are all the skills fluid, comfortable and repeatable?

On a rare occasion I will not certify a student who I feel is a fatality waiting to happen. I'm more than happy to refund the money. Because I currently teach for a shop, what would most likely happen is that another instructor would be assigned to the student. If I had such a student where I was independent who refused the refund, demanded the certification, and filed a complaint with the training organization, I would explain that skills were not mastered and that the only way I would sign off is if the training agency took full responsibility for the lifetime of the agency or the student (whichever is shorter) of any litigation where I would be absolved of all responsibility and that the agency would pay for the attorney of my choice for my defense if that student were in any sort of a diving related accident. I somehow doubt any agency would take me up on that.

 

[Killerflyingbugs]

The attitudes of some of the people on this thread are the reason I mostly dive solo...

If you think your s**t don't stink and you are better than every one with a C card not as "advanced" as yours is you are an accident waiting to happen Imho. You are not entitled to respect you have to earn it. So many people in my generation (millennials) have it in there heads that they are gods gift to whatever they are doing and if you question them on it they get all bent out of shape and have to go to there "safe space" and cry or whatever. If you are on a dive boat with a operation you haven't dived with it makes sense they want to see how well you dive, it's their responsibility to evaluate you so you don't possibly endanger the other divers or crew. Many divers have died trying to save someone that was in over their heads, it's the ops job to lessen the chance of that happening. Just because they want to see you in water before they bring you out doesn't entitle you to get all butt hurt about it.

I wish more instructors had the attitudes of Andy Davis or WetB4, it would make for a better industry as a whole.

Ok I'm off my soap box.

 

[oly5050user]

On a rare occasion I will not certify a student who I feel is a fatality waiting to happen. I'm more than happy to refund the money. Because I currently teach for a shop, what would most likely happen is that another instructor would be assigned to the student. If I had such a student where I was independent who refused the refund, demanded the certification, and filed a complaint with the training organization, I would explain that skills were not mastered and that the only way I would sign off is if the training agency took full responsibility for the lifetime of the agency or the student (whichever is shorter) of any litigation where I would be absolved of all responsibility and that the agency would pay for the attorney of my choice for my defense if that student were in any sort of a diving related accident. I somehow doubt any agency would take me up on that.

Why give them a refund? You spent time, effort, resources to conduct the class. Should you not be paid? Does a driving school give a refund when a road test is failed? Does a college return school fees when a degree is not earned? Foolish to refund monies.

 

[scubadada]

Perhaps there's a way to screen for acceptable ability. On screening, ask for level of training, date of last dive, number of dives in last year. I have no problem doing a check out dive as long as it is a reasonable dive in the sequence and I'm not paying more for it.