AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[Diving Dubai]

I decided to sit out what was reportedly a very nice dive on the Giannis D at Abu Nuhas in the Red Sea

And well done you for that. On a LOB there is is always the possibility of peer pressure, but stepping down from a dive whether you think it's on the limit of your confidence or abilities, or whether you have sore ear and want to rest it for the next days diving is never a bad thing and should always be accepted

The Giannis D was dive No.10 for me. (I continued day boat diving after my OW) - There was no surge that day I do remember my Instructor staying close in case we got disorientated with the ships angle on the way down, and I remember I got a slap on the wrist post dive for not watching my depth gauge as I slipped to 20m when only 18m qualified

 

[redacted]

Roatan was the only place I ever encountered what was obviously a checkout dive, not counting Bonaire where you check yourself out. It was with BIBR and was conducted at the beginning of the first boat dive. They went to a site that had a sandy patch where it took less than 10 minutes to get the group of 8 together and do a mask removal. Then off to a perfectly satisfactory first dive. I would not do business with an op that required a checkout dive that causes to loss of a day of diving.

All other places I have been tend to do the first dive at a reasonably easy site and observe their divers a bit more closely during gear set-up, entry, descent, and the initial part of the dive. You could hardly tell they were checking you out.

 

[Neilwood]

And well done you for that. On a LOB there is is always the possibility of peer pressure, but stepping down from a dive whether you think it's on the limit of your confidence or abilities, or whether you have sore ear and want to rest it for the next days diving is never a bad thing and should always be accepted

The Giannis D was dive No.10 for me. (I continued day boat diving after my OW) - There was no surge that day I do remember my Instructor staying close in case we got disorientated with the ships angle on the way down, and I remember I got a slap on the wrist post dive for not watching my depth gauge as I slipped to 20m when only 18m qualified

Thanks for that.

I think Abu Nuhas is one of those that it either has significant surge or none at all depending on Red Sea currents in general.

I had no regrets in staying on board but I think I might have had I chosen to do the dive when I take into account the surge and my tiredness (it was the early morning dive at 6.30am and would have been dive number 19 of the week).

 

[boulderjohn]

As far as I'm aware, only BSAC and GUE at the basic level are prepared to fail people. Having a fail certain made me a better diver, I get the impression others just go through the motion knowing they will pass.

As Edward3c suggested in his response to this, modern scuba instruction for almost all agencies is based on Benjamin Bloom's concept of mastery learning. Under this concept, people do not fail courses in the traditional sense--they keep working at it until they complete it satisfactorily. Moreover, the courses is built sequentially so that students build to large skills in small steps that they master as they go. Mask clearing is a perfect example. A student is taught to clear a partially flooded mask, and the student cannot move forward until doing that at a satisfactory level. Then the student clears a completely flooded mask, again with the requirement that it must be done well before moving on. Then the student breathes under water without a mask. Then the student removes and replaces a mask. Then the student removes the mask, swims, and replaces it. In each case, the skill must be done well before the student can move on.

The above steps are all done in the confined water sessions. Those skills must be repeated successfully in the open water checkout dives. A student who reaches the end of a class without the ability to clear a mask has been the victim of a totally incompetent instructor who is not following agency standards.

If you have reached the the end of the class, then you must have passed it, because you should not have reached the end of the class without showing competence at every step along the way.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@boulderjohn

I totally agree with what you have said, and as I posted earlier, fail was a bad choice of words.

We know however the ideal above isn't followed. Here I don't blame the instructors. I blame the the shops and certainly the agencies for selling courses that have a pre determined number of dives with which to achieve the skills.

What I really mean, is that a customer is sold a course and when they ask how long it will take, they are given a definitive answer. You may well tell me that the time stated is a minimum but the course rates charged don't support additional education time. Dive shops after all are profit centres So there is pressure on a student to master the skills within a pre determined time.

I don't know what the answer is, but thats for your insight

 

[EarlJonesIII]

Quantity vs quality.

Typical NC wreck dives are rough oceans, surges, 70 ft vis, and moderate to strong currents around the 120 foot depth.

I'd match one of my boys whose only done 100 dives against your boy whose done 1000 dives in that pretty clear calm Arizona quarry any day of the week, and give you 4 to 1 odds on your money.

Went on a charter in Florida. Cap'n comes out and says, "We gonna hafta call the dive. Weather service is reporting 3-foot seas."
"LOL. Three foot seas?? In North Carolina three foot seas is a calm day."
Cap'n says, "Oh, y'all are the group from North Carolina?" He goes back in and comes back out about 15 minutes later and announces to everyone, "Sorry. The charter has been canceled due to the weather. But I'll take the group from North Carolina."

How many dives you've logged doesn't mean much by itself. It's just a number. Once had a snobby dive shop ask me how many dives I had logged (before they would let me go on their charter). "156" I said. "OK" the lady at the counter says. "We just require you to have 50 logged dives is why I ask."

"Those 156 were in the swimming pool in my back yard." She didn't think it was as funny as I did.

 

[Neilwood]

Quantity vs quality.

Typical NC wreck dives are rough oceans, surges, 70 ft vis, and moderate to strong currents around the 120 foot depth.

I'd match one of my boys whose only done 100 dives against your boy whose done 1000 dives in that pretty clear calm Arizona quarry any day of the week, and give you 4 to 1 odds on your money.

Went on a charter in Florida. Cap'n comes out and says, "We gonna hafta call the dive. Weather service is reporting 3-foot seas."
"LOL. Three foot seas?? In North Carolina three foot seas is a calm day."
Cap'n says, "Oh, y'all are the group from North Carolina?" He goes back in and comes back out about 15 minutes later and announces to everyone, "Sorry. The charter has been canceled due to the weather. But I'll take the group from North Carolina."

How many dives you've logged doesn't mean much by itself. It's just a number. Once had a snobby dive shop ask me how many dives I had logged (before they would let me go on their charter). "156" I said. "OK" the lady at the counter says. "We just require you to have 50 logged dives is why I ask."

"Those 156 were in the swimming pool in my back yard." She didn't think it was as funny as I did.

Love it - sounds like an average day diving in the North Sea tbh.

 

[Bennno]

Quantity vs quality.

Typical NC wreck dives are rough oceans, surges, 70 ft vis, and moderate to strong currents around the 120 foot depth.

I'd match one of my boys whose only done 100 dives against your boy whose done 1000 dives in that pretty clear calm Arizona quarry any day of the week, and give you 4 to 1 odds on your money.

Went on a charter in Florida. Cap'n comes out and says, "We gonna hafta call the dive. Weather service is reporting 3-foot seas."
"LOL. Three foot seas?? In North Carolina three foot seas is a calm day."
Cap'n says, "Oh, y'all are the group from North Carolina?" He goes back in and comes back out about 15 minutes later and announces to everyone, "Sorry. The charter has been canceled due to the weather. But I'll take the group from North Carolina."

How many dives you've logged doesn't mean much by itself. It's just a number. Once had a snobby dive shop ask me how many dives I had logged (before they would let me go on their charter). "156" I said. "OK" the lady at the counter says. "We just require you to have 50 logged dives is why I ask."

"Those 156 were in the swimming pool in my back yard." She didn't think it was as funny as I did.

Generally I agree with you. 100 dives is not a lot of experience even if they were in rough conditions though, so the number does matter to some extent. But, yeah cold quarries are basically just larger swimming pools, they're easy diving and IMHO they're less challenging than even a warm water reef dive with ripping current.
Cold, current, bad viz and a choppy surface are the best experience builders by far!

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
How many dives you've logged doesn't mean much by itself. . . .

Indeed, how many dives you've logged doesn't mean much by itself, since it depends not only on under what conditions you have dived but also on how long ago the dives were and how far apart those dives were. It doesn't mean much in the case of, say, a diver who did all those NC dives 20 years ago but now does only a few dives a year in the Caribbean. There are so many factors that could go into this whole thing.

It seems to me that a dive op that is just trying to reduce incidents on their watch could spend as much time quizzing the diver about his certs, where he has dived, how long ago, how frequent, how recent, how deep, etc., as the dive op would spend giving the diver a check-out dive. The "check-out dive" is just simpler.

 

[TMHeimer]

@boulderjohn

I totally agree with what you have said, and as I posted earlier, fail was a bad choice of words.

We know however the ideal above isn't followed. Here I don't blame the instructors. I blame the the shops and certainly the agencies for selling courses that have a pre determined number of dives with which to achieve the skills.

What I really mean, is that a customer is sold a course and when they ask how long it will take, they are given a definitive answer. You may well tell me that the time stated is a minimum but the course rates charged don't support additional education time. Dive shops after all are profit centres So there is pressure on a student to master the skills within a pre determined time.

I don't know what the answer is, but thats for your insight

Yeah, the "timeline" thing. We had a logistic problem getting an OW course started on time so it went late, causing one student to complain since he had commitments after class. I don't know if our shop did so, but part of the deal when signing up should be to clear the whole day/weekend--especially since you're dealing with a number of students. My thought is that if the class takes longer, that's how it goes. If an individual needs more than just a little extra help, he/she should be prepared to pay a bit extra. Then of course you get into the discussion of what "mastering" each skill means. If it means doing it well 10 times I would doubt there are many shops with that kind of time, especially if paying pool rent.