Concerns about moderating policies

[dumpsterDiver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread was created by moving off topic posts relarted to moderator policies and practices from another thread.

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I don't have any strong opinons on spearfishing, except that I enjoy harvesting myself. Since I usually bring a camera, that's enough for me to handle, so I'm quite happy to use just my catch bag and my dive knife for the harvesting I do. Several of my buddies spearfish, though.

I do, however, have very strong opinions on the topic of unsafe gun handling, and negligent discharges - especially if they lead to someone getting hurt. Regardless of the type of gun.

Scubaboard is a strange place. If I said that a diver who bolted to the surface and received a significant lung expansion injury was an "idiot" or a "moron" (for making this kind of mistake), I would probably be back in trouble again. But a moderator can make those comments about a spearfisherman's accident which results in devastating injuries and "all is well".

I'm all for calling calling out idiotic mistakes and more relaxed moderation, but it is difficult for me to determine when it will be allowed.

Based on your failure to confirm that you have EVER shot a speargun (after repeated inquiries) I will go on the assumption that you have never shot a speargun. Which is fine.. of course, but it seems unusual for someone to develop such strong opinions and give out safety advice for an activity (using a speargun) that they have never actually participated in (or possibly even observed).

You have made, what I consider a very dangerous and mistaken comment about the potential consequences of an accidental or unwanted discharge of a speargun.

Based on your comments, it appears that your advice is that if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, should an accidental (or unintentional) discharge occur, then the consequences (at worst) will be embarrassment.

This is absolutely WRONG and is very dangerous advice to be giving out on a forum.

If/when a powerful speargun is discharged, there is a huge amount of energy released. All the momentum delivered to the spearshaft moving forward is generated by the momentum of the gun moving backwards. This is an incredibly important issue and is SUPER DANGEROUS to the SHOOTER. The recoil is a killer. It does not matter, even a tiny bit, what the speargun happens to be pointing toward.

An accidental discharge and failure to control recoil of a speargun can literally kill a person; it happened a few years ago to a gentlemen. Many. many people have lost front teeth from a speargun coming back (unexpectedly) into their mouth. The amount of smaller injuries, broken noses, chipped teeth, busted lips, smashed dive masks, etc. is legendary and is more significant than "a brusied ego". To be ignorant of this very important safety consideration lead me to suspect that you do not know anything about spearguns, their safety, or how they work. It is the most basic knowledge that must be instilled into someone, BEFORE they pull the trigger.

"This gun is gonna come backwards and try to knock your teeth out" - keep your wrist tight and straight and you probably should lock your elbow until you understand how it feels. You need a tight grip. when I teach children to shoot a speargun, I make them hold the gun out front (tightly) and then I grab the muzzle and try to slam the gun back into their face. They need to be aware of and prepared for the recoil and know how control it. Obviously, you want to match the strength of the gun with the strength and skill of the shooter. Maybe it is not so different than a powerful handgun or riffle?

The consequences of an accidental discharge need to be considered when handling the loaded gun. I for one, am hesitant to clip off a loaded gun to my chest d-ring, because I fear an accidental discharge could knock me out - which could be fatal underwater.

Recoil issues are critically important, but it should also be recognized that a speargun can go off - simply by looking at it wrong or bumping it. Spearguns can discharge "by themselves"- even when the safety is on and functional. The mechanism is nothing like a firearm.

A speagun, when loaded, is subject to a tremendous amount of tension, and corrosion or cracking or wear of the shaft or the mechanism iteself (or other components) can cause the gun to just fire randomly. These realities (in addition to recoil) seem to make handling a speargun quite different than handling a "gun". I don't want to extend the analogies or comparisons with "real guns" any further because I am quite ignorant about firearms and guns.

Spearguns need to be held tightly, should not be shot out of the water and it is best to assume that it may fire at any time.

 

[Storker]

Scubaboard is a strange place. If I said that a diver who bolted to the surface and received a significant lung expansion injury was an "idiot" or a "moron" (for making this kind of mistake), I would probably be back in trouble again. But a moderator can make those comments about a spearfisherman's accident which results in devastating injuries and "all is well".

Any board member, if posting to a thread, is subject to the same rules. No matter if they're a mod, a veteran member or a n00b on the board. If a member who happens to be a mod posts to a thread, they are posting as a normal member and are subject to moderation just like any other board member. If that member happens to be a mod, they are automatically disqualified from having an opinion on the moderation of that thread. If you think that a board member - any board member - has transgressed SB's ToC or any special rules for that specific forum, it's on you to report that post. If the reported member happens to be a mod, they will not be allowed to take part in the discussion about that incident due to conflict of interest. Alluding that some board members receive special treatment due to their status is, at best, disingenuous.

Based on your comments, it appears that your advice is that if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, should an accidental (or unintentional) discharge occur, then the consequences (at worst) will be embarrassment.

I have never claimed that keeping "the gun [...] pointed in a safe direction" won't incur worse consequences on negligent discharge than "(at worst) [...] embarrassment". However, keeping the gun in a safe direction is an absolute minimum, and if you (the general you) aren't even able to do that, you (the general you) should never handle a gun of any kind. If you (the general you) are able to do that (and it's rather simple), you most probably won't shoot someone else. And negligently shooting someone else was the topic of this thread, not the possible dangers to the shooter themself.

Don't read more into my comments that there has been written.

BTW, I still claim that there are very, very few truly accidental discharges. Almost all "accidental" (or unintentional) discharges are negligent.

 

[Bennno]

If that member happens to be a mod, they are automatically disqualified from having an opinion on the moderation of that thread. If you think that a board member - any board member - has transgressed SB's ToC or any special rules for that specific forum, it's on you to report that post. If the reported member happens to be a mod, they will not be allowed to take part in the discussion about that incident due to conflict of interest. Alluding that some board members receive special treatment due to their status is, at best, disingenuous.

Can you report people for reporting too much and for BS reasons? Maybe the super sensitive people shouldn't be mods, just sayin' ...

I hope I don't get reported for this post.

 

[Bennno]

Scubaboard is a strange place. If I said that a diver who bolted to the surface and received a significant lung expansion injury was an "idiot" or a "moron" (for making this kind of mistake), I would probably be back in trouble again. But a moderator can make those comments about a spearfisherman's accident which results in devastating injuries and "all is well".

This is so true!
Last time I wrote a post like Storker, I was banned for 3 month, AGAIN. The hypocrisy is rediculous... when you have called out mods in the past, you are on the short list to be banned. I was actually told so by a mod.
Better be careful @dumpsterDiver, you might be on the short list already.

 

[boulderjohn]

First Comment:
Using a word like "moron" is in itself not an offense. It depends upon how it is used. Do you see a difference in the two comments below.

A person [not someone identifiable in the thread] would have to be a moron to do something as crazy as that.

Bill, you are a moron.

 

[boulderjohn]

Second Comment:
Many people who are banned later give their version of why they were banned in a later thread. I have never seen anyone give anything remotely close to an accurate account. One of the many reasons for such inaccuracies is the failure to mention that the final step, the last straw, in the banning came after a long, long list of transgressions with multiple warnings.

 

[boulderjohn]

Third Comment:
Back when I taught 9th graders, a grade in which, for reasons probably related to raging hormones, some young students find themselves prone to getting into trouble, I used to start each year with a commentary that went something like this:

Ever notice that some students get nailed for doing things that other students get away with? There is a reason for it. All students start out in the same place as far as the teacher is concerned, but things change during the year. Some students start causing problems for the teacher almost from the first day. It may be a little something here or there, and it might be some pretty darn big things here and there as well. These students try the teacher's patience. They cause a buildup of anger that may keep the teacher awake at night wondering what to do about this troublemaker. The teacher will eventually become hypervigilent with that student, ready to pounce at the first sign of trouble. As the situation deteriorates, those students begin to react to this hypervigilence. They scowl at the teacher. They make snide comments. They go out of their way to provoke bad feelings. None of this helps the situation.

Other students go quietly and happily about their work, even offering to be helpful in little ways. When the teacher thinks of those students, it is with a joy that reminds them of why they became teachers. They develop a positive rapport with those students, one that grows with the year. As the situation continues to grow, the students react to this. They smile when they make eye contact with the teacher. They give a cheery greeting when they enter the room. All of this helps the situation even more.

So when one of the supposedly "favored" students commits a minor transgression, there is a good chance the teacher did not even notice because he or she was too busy focusing on the "unfavored" students in order to be ready for the next in a long line of transgressions.
​

I think most people will see a similarity to how ScubaBoard is moderated.

 

[boulderjohn]

Fourth Comment:
When you have been banned for a time and then return, you do not return with a clean slate. It takes a really, really bad post to cause a ban by itself, so people who have been banned have done so after a long list of transgressions. Believe me, in some cases the first ban does not come until the moderator discussions that lead to the ban include people fairly screaming that enough is enough is enough, already. When those people come back from a ban, they are definitely being watched closely for a return of the behavior that led to the ban. It should therefore take fewer and more mild offenses to lead to a second ban, but even that is not always true; sometimes people returning from bans seem to get away with more than they did before. I don't know what that is true.

But if you have been banned in the past, then, yes, you should expect that you will be watched more carefully. Get enough such attention, and eventually moderators will get tired of it all and make it permanent.

 

[Steve_C]

First Comment:
Using a word like "moron" is in itself not an offense. It depends upon how it is used. Do you see a difference in the two comments below.

A person [not someone identifiable in the thread] would have to be a moron to do something as crazy as that.

Bill, you are a moron.

Since the comment almost always comes in response to particular activities or statements I think that distinction if rarely that obvious.

 

[Steve_C]

Third Comment:

Ever notice that some students get nailed for doing things that other students get away with? There is a reason for it.​

Some times the reason is that student A is the biggest student in class by a noctiecable ammount and has a naturally loud voice. Little student B punches or pushes student A or teases A or asks A a question. Student A starts to respond and teacher looks up and nails him. Or perhaps student B is considered special for some reason and their behavior is excused. (Special covers lots of things including wealthy parents who donate to the school).

Because student A is larger and mature intellectually he is often treated as if he is an older student than he is emotional maturity wise.

Based on raising one large son and now helping raise one large grandson and having observed many formal an informal youth groups of many ages.

I am a nonviolent person but time after time the bullying stops once the bully has been fought back. Bully's rarely quit on their own. Just takes a while for the student to learn the time and place to do it.

Sometimes teachers just like docile low energy kids.​