Boat captain encouraging wreck penetration

[Marie13]

Whatever <shrugs>

Some local folks, since they saw from my FB pics what boat I was on today, shared some interesting stories of their own about this charter op. Let's just say my decision to not go with this op again was a good one.

If you want to go into a silty wreck, without a light or reel, have at it! I won't.

 

[Wookie]

If you want to go into a silty wreck, without a light or reel, have at it! I won't.

Exactly, as you know your limitations. Don't deny me mine.

 

[rhwestfall]

I don't believe he's a taxi, but that's a whole different thread.

Yeah, you are correct, and I chose a bad way to say "you are responsible for executing the dive you are capable of"...

 

[Marie13]

I was more concerned about the novices who don't know any better. I'm finding an awful lot of novices aren't as educated about stuff as I am. But since no one else is worried about them, I'll not worry my little head about them. If someone gets hurt or worse inside a silted up wreck, "sanitized" or not, because a charter op "encouraged" them to penetrate, their problem, not mine, it seems. Too bad, so sad?

Tell me how this is different from OW certified divers being "encouraged" to go into other overhead environments, such as caverns? Don't a number of you rail on about that?

 

[scubadiver888]

I dive Lake Ontario and Lake Erie wrecks. When I go diving I or someone I'm diving with knows the boat captain. They don't tell us to have the proper training but they don't encourage us to penetrate the wreck. If the captain (or whoever is giving the briefing) doesn't know you they usually chat you up on the ride out to the wreck. if you are new to the area or a novice they'll 'remind' you that some people on the charter have the appropriate training but that you shouldn't penetrate the wreck without the proper training.

Essentially, a good captain knows, even if he isn't going to be held responsible for someone's death or even a bad experience, it doesn't hurt to care about your customer and give a little advice, if they feel it is warranted.

I can also tell you, I've been diving every weekend this summer. I don't know about Michigan but the current and viz in Lake Ontario, Lake Eric, St. Lawrence River, Niagara River and St. Clair River have been fairly challenging. I think the only on-purpose wreck I know is the Wolf Islander II but I wouldn't encourage anyone to penetrate it without the appropriate training. I've been on the RMS Rhone in BVI. That is a swim through. I see guides encouraging people to 'penetrate' that wreck all the time. No biggie. Ships in the Great Lakes, screamers or not, are not swim throughs. This is fresh water. These ships are fairly well intact.

Now on the other hand, there are SOME wrecks (even screamers) which they might encourage penetration. For example, the Eastcliffe Hall in the St. Lawrence. There is more opening than there is deck. Swimming inside the wreck gets out out of the current. Viz in there is actually not bad. A lot better than outside the wreck. But it is hard to call this wreck an overhead environment because the top of it is SOOOO open. BUT they would make sure you had a light and a backup. Actually, last time I was in the Eastcliffe Hall, the boat captain geared up and went down with some of the more novice divers.

Maybe I just expect more from a Great Lakes boat captain.

Darrell

 

[Compressor]

I need to tread carefully with this post, given the parties involved...



My first reaction to hearing the captain talk about penetrating the wreck was WTF?! Going into overheads without training/proper gear can get people hurt or killed. I always have in mind this incident of a diver trapped in the Cedarville, a wreck in the Straits of Mackinac. Pretty sobering stuff.

Wreck Dive Rescue: Trapped Inside the Cedarville

Viz on the wreck turned out to be 10ft, if that. As we were swimming over the open hatches, I thought, "You wanted me to penetrate in *these* conditions?!"

My reaction to the briefing would have been the same. Perhaps the Captain knew the skills of the divers on the boat. But if the divers on the boat are not trained for the dive they are going to make, then accidents can happen that are potentially avoidable.

Being cautious is the hallmark of safe divers. I rather have Marie13 as my buddy than a non thinking diver getting over their head.

 

[TMHeimer]

Marie has taken some heat to the tune of well, "make decisions for yourself, be responsible, know your limitations", yada yada. Of course that's true--I didn't see where Marie didn't do these things. I don't like to comment on such happenings when I haven't actually been there. But from what she says, I completely agree with her. Big reason being that from all I've read and learned through PADI, entering an overhead environment without proper training is maybe the number two no-no after "never hold your breath". OK, if the Capt. absolutely knew that everyone on board was in fact qualified, that would change my response. If he did know that he probably wouldn't have to encourage them since they probably were planning on penetration anyway.
If I were on that boat, as a retired DM, I'd be very tempted to speak up. And I almost never open my big mouth except on Scubaboard.

 

[Chavodel8en]

I would say "it's no business of mine what chall do". ... Except if a diver on the same boat gets in trouble, it could ruin my dive and my day. This may sound selfish, but I don't want to have my dive ruined, so prefer that the dive op run things pretty tight.

Once dove the Sea Tiger in Oahu, and I saw a diver with a private DM planning to penetrate with only one light between them. First thing I thought was these fools better not ruin my dive and I need to be somewhere this afternoon.

I agree that everyone is responsible for their own dive, and nobody is dragging anyone into a wreck. But I would be concerned that someone who didn't know any better heard the briefing and decided to penetrate. And sounds like the captain didn't know Marie from Eve, so he wasn't just speaking to divers he was familiar with.

For me, a simple statement "don't penetrate beyond your abilities" would suffice. You can't control other divers (in the Sea Tiger example above, the dive op cautioned re penetration beyond abilities, but obviously it didn't matter). But, you can control the dive op.. With your business, as Marie has chosen to do here.

 

[TMHeimer]

Chavodel8en, IMO a valid point of view. An accident on the highway holds you up. You see that apparently no one was seriously hurt (or, they're taken to the hospital). It might sound selfish here too, but my thought is "Who did something stupid that caused a 10 mile backup, inconveniencing us all--maybe someone in the traffic jam really had somewhere important to be (like visiting a dying family member), as opposed to me just being on vacation". Same idea as some diver doing something stupid and ruining your dive day.

 

[OkByMe]

There are a lot of things you can get to do what you want which most often requires another party to provide, to the extent of the items or the opportunity. Like skis, hang gliders, para-sails, guns, cars, off road vehicles, SCUBA, motorcycles and dirt bikes,,, and so on. A what point do these people have a determined and established obligation toward me to protect my safety...though advice, regulation, restriction, or control access - NONE. I am what I am and that's all that I am and I am responsible for me. So, in the great scheme of things...