Boat captain encouraging wreck penetration

[lowviz]

I knew you had a sense of humor...

Stay safe.

 

[Nasser]

Disregard the patronizing posts. You made a good call and you shared your experience in the Basic Scuba Discussion for the benefit of others who may not have enough experience or may feel pressured in a similar situation and may not make the best decisions.

Thanks for your post.

 

[Steve_C]

Regardless of what all the grizzled veterans said I think it is a good post. I dive a lot off NC. I see a lot of divers on the boats who's only experience is some guided trips on shallow reefs, Some have been instabuddies of mine and it is their first dive post certification in a quarry. We are in 80 to 100+. They need to be told carefully to follow the anchor line down and back. If there are swim throughs the captain will say "there are some nice swim throughs if you are comfortable with that:".

The Markham is on its side and sunk half way through the bottom. On the dive, it is pointed out that penetration can be disorienting inside and silty and is not a simple swim through.

There is the good point made earlier that even on swim throughs that they change especially if you have hurricanes. Don't rely on somebodies old data. There is one on the Hyde. A few years ago it was a nice open corridor, from the hold through a room and then to the stern room which is lined with open windows. Then part of the middle room was damaged and I quit doing it. Then the entire middle room collapsed and it became a nice short swim through, then a wall collapsed and I no longer do it again.

I will say that I have only seen one case of a pair of divers who got lost and eventually came up a long way away. Many chuckles on the boat, before they made it back, about the experienced cave divers. They did have SMBs so we knew where they were coming up. They had trouble navigating without walls to help them.

 

[The Chairman]

PS what do the relatives think of you referring to those who died as 'screaming'? Is that a common turn of speech? Do you apply it to more recent conflicts too?

I don't know Ken... I haven't talked to any. It's my way of categorizing wrecks. When I'm diving a screamer, I'm far more in tune with the life and death drama that happened on the boat. When I'm diving a fake wreck (artificial reef) like the Speigle Grove, I don't have that same sense of awe. There are lots of swim throughs on the Speigle. It's like a jungle gym for divers. If I can see light at the other end, then it's probably safe. There are also penetration dives on the Speigle and you'll not see any light. You should be trained with the proper equipment and attitude before you attempt those. There are no Scuba police down there, so you'll have to make your own decision on what you're going to do.

 

[Neilwood]

@Marie13 you made the right decision for you. That is what counts.

The no penetration/overheads guidance for divers is there for a reason - too many uninformed divers get into situations they are not prepared for with bad consequences.

What there is though is a large grey area with wrecks between the easy, wide open ones (where the routes are glorified swimthroughs and the tricky possibly dangerous ones.

I did some wreck dives on the liveaboard last year with penetrations on most of them (all of which are dived by thousands of people each year):
Dunraven- - very large openings in the hull for entry and wide passages meaning it is a glorified swimthrough. Easy access for assistance or exit if anything happens. Very little silt.
Thistlegorm- most passages are wide and open at each end (if not more openings). Any bottlenecks are minimal so assistance would be easily available. Very little silt as it sits out of the currents.
Carnatic- wide open shell of a ship with very little of the hull remaining (just the wooden ribs) meaning a penetration can finish anytime.
Chrisoula K- Again decent passages and open access. Slightly harder as there was distinct current on it but this meant very little silt.

All the above have been "sanitised" to an extent , all have routes that are one way in and one way out (no chance of getting lost) and dived by experienced guides with any difficult penetrations or entanglement hazards being kept off limits to most tours.

I wasn't sure about doing them as a fairly inexperienced diver but having done them I realise why they are OK to dive and why some sections are out of bounds. At virtually all points, daylight was visible (I did have two lights anyway).

 

[w3dge]

There's some slightly tighter and darker spots on the Chrisoula K, particularly the machinery space at the aft, the engine room and propshaft tunnel, if you go looking!

 

[2airishuman]

As he's giving up the briefing on the first wreck (a cleaned up 200ft car ferry specifically sunk for divers/fish habit more than 10 years ago), he is talking about people penetrating the wreck. He's enthusiastic about it. There is no mention of "if you have the training and equipment" to penetrate. He had no clue if we had lights and wreck reels, let alone the training to penetrate. My instabuddy, a really nice gal in her 20s, and I looked at each other in horror and immediately agreed we didn't feel comfortable doing it and would not. I told her about my wreck class on the lake, just last weekend, where the 3rd limited penetration (within the light zone for other newbies) dive was called due to very bad viz.

My first reaction to hearing the captain talk about penetrating the wreck was WTF?! Going into overheads without training/proper gear can get people hurt or killed.

I understand your concern. I myself would withhold judgment. I have taken swim throughs on wrecks but do not engage in penetration dives and have declined to follow DMs leading people into areas which, while probably safe, do not have a straight-through route to an exit that I consider the hallmark of a swim-through.

I think that part of your feelings about the experience are wrapped up in the overall general lack of competence and confidence of the boat-diving public and I feel your pain there. Divers who pursue excellence in diving are rare, and the Scubaboard approach to diving is not widely followed.

I always have in mind this incident of a diver trapped in the Cedarville, a wreck in the Straits of Mackinac. Pretty sobering stuff.

That's a very different wreck, as others have written upthread.

 

[Jack Hammer]

The "wreck" in question was cleaned up and intentionally sunk for divers almost 15 years ago. It had several holes cut in the deck to with the intent of allowing "safer" penetration into certain areas. Whereas the main portion of the engine room is pretty benign with a large opening over it, other areas are not and have quite a bit of fine silt in them. I know of 2 rescues that were performed in the kitchen area from divers who silted it out and were unable to exit through the tiny vent holes (cut for sinking, not access) above. Lucky for them their flailing arms coming out the deck were seen by a tech diver who ran a line into the cabin area and escorted them safely out.

 

[diver0008]

If I was on that boat, I would have both expected and appreciated a briefing on penetrating the wreck that we were about to dive, whether I planned to or not; standard procedure; knowledge is good.

If someone else wants to take the risk of diving beyond their training or abilities, it's not my business; I will be focused on my own surivial and that of my buddy.

Some people like having their hand held and relying on a DM. Others do not want or need this.

To each his own.

Denying some divers the knowledge and opportunity for an advanced dive because other divers are ill-prepared for it is selfish.

If some diver blows a deco stop due to low air, just for example, they are going for the chamber ride, not me, and not the DM.

No lights, no reel, no training? Don't do it. Just because the DM outlines the option does not mean that he "wants" you or is "encouraging" you to do it.

The OP did not. That was her choice, and she was free to make it. Others presumably opted-in.

From what was presented, the dive went off without incident, and everyone came out alive, so I am not quite sure what this hearsayical public gripe was about in the first place.

 

[Neilwood]

There's some slightly tighter and darker spots on the Chrisoula K, particularly the machinery space at the aft, the engine room and propshaft tunnel, if you go looking!

You would have to actively go looking for them and, if part of a liveaboard dive, generally they are not included in the guided dives!

My point is that those wrecks are pretty benign to dive on, especially on a guided dive, whereas there are a lot of others out there which are not so safe. Knowing the difference and your own limits (mentally and skill wise) is the key to safe diving.