Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[BDSC]

The current climate is that many divers consider themselves a PADI diver or a NAUI diver rather than just being a certified diver. The "certified" part got us fills. The "diver" part got us friends. I see more division than diversity in the sport today.

That division also includes folks who consider themselves "serious divers" as opposed to "vacation divers" and labels them as such. As if somehow being a serious diver makes you better.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

That division also includes folks who consider themselves "serious divers" as opposed to "vacation divers" and labels them as such. As if somehow being a serious diver makes you better.

You mean like being a serious figure skater probably makes you better than someone who ice skates occasionally?

 

[BDSC]

What I mean is guys like yourself seem to look down on "vacation divers" almost as if they are a nuisance to the sport.

The funny thing is, no one except folks like you even care about stuff like that. I've been lucky enough to travel all over the world and be on dive boats with hundreds of other divers. No one ever asks, "Hey, are you a PADI diver or NAUI diver"? Never do I hear anyone say, "Would you consider yourself a serious diver or vacation diver". People are just out there having a good time and that's what matters to them. These conversations makes for great SB chatter and internet talk but that's about it. The only division is the division that's in your mind or maybe the division you create around you. I've never seen it in the 27 years I've been diving. But maybe I don't hang with the "Cool Kids".

 

[Wookie]

What I mean is guys like yourself seem to look down on "vacation divers" almost as if they are a nuisance to the sport.

The funny thing is, no one except folks like you even care about stuff like that. I've been lucky enough to travel all over the world and be on dive boats with hundreds of other divers. No one ever asks, "Hey, are you a PADI diver or NAUI diver"? Never do I hear anyone say, "Would you consider yourself a serious diver or vacation diver". People are just out there having a good time and that's what matters to them. These conversations makes for great SB chatter and internet talk but that's about it. The only division is the division that's in your mind or maybe the division you create around you. I've never seen it in the 27 years I've been diving. But maybe I don't hang with the "Cool Kids".

But can you put your gear together by yourself? Vacation divers typically can't. Can you dive independently without a guide? (Not are you willing, but can you? There are many good reasons to have a guide.) Vacation divers get very nervous on their own in a buddy team. Can you navigate back to the entry if given very specific instructions how to? Vacation divers typically can't.

But i feel good that vacation divers who booked with me by mistake became serious divers despite themselves.

 

[markmud]

But can you put your gear together by yourself? Vacation divers typically can't. Can you dive independently without a guide? (Not are you willing, but can you? There are many good reasons to have a guide.) Vacation divers get very nervous on their own in a buddy team. Can you navigate back to the entry if given very specific instructions how to? Vacation divers typically can't.

But i feel good that vacation divers who booked with me by mistake became serious divers despite themselves.

Hi Wookie,

Thanks for your definition of a vacation diver. I thought I was a high-level vacation diver. I am not. I guess I should now consider myself a Hobbyist diver.

See link for details on Hobbyist diver:
An Evaluation of the Modern Scuba Diving Training Industry

You taught me something again Wookie.
markm

 

[BDSC]

But can you put your gear together by yourself? Vacation divers typically can't. Can you dive independently without a guide? (Not are you willing, but can you? There are many good reasons to have a guide.) Vacation divers get very nervous on their own in a buddy team. Can you navigate back to the entry if given very specific instructions how to? Vacation divers typically can't.

But i feel good that vacation divers who booked with me by mistake became serious divers despite themselves.

I guess I just dive with a different type of diver than what some of you folks are use to seeing.

Most of us are "vacation divers" meaning that we don't dive locally in the quarry nor do they. My diving is while on vacation to various places like the Caribbean, the Socorro Islands, Sea of Cortez, Palau, Fiji, etc. etc. Everyone knows how to set up their gear. Some places require a guide to be in the water and if that's the case I typically try to keep that person in sight but I'm usually doing my own thing. As far as I know none of us are nervous on a dive unless some of the folks are but never mention it. I have no problem finding the boat if I need to. Pretty much all of us would fall into what I have described.

Most of the group I am with are experienced divers. We probably range from a few hundred to some in the group have thousands. What I tend to see in these types of discussions is that "vacation divers" are some group of folks that don't know what they are doing, are afraid of their own shadows, and need their hands held every step of the way. But I seldom see those folks. See you can be a "vacation diver" and have lots of experience. You can even have more experience than some "serious divers" whatever that term means anyway. I know a few vacation divers that have over 5000 dives and would put them up against any serious diver I know.

Maybe someone can define what is a "serious diver".

 

[Bob DBF]

the vacation divers are what provide the numbers to support the industry as it is these days. saying that we should have more expensive and thorough training will only decrease the number of new divers being certified and hasten the end of the industry

The dive industry, by their actions, doesn't care if everyone goes to Asia and gets certified and buys their gear there or on the Internet, they make money either way. I'd say that's one reason the manufacturers and agencies have not worked seriously on the problem of dive shops closing.

As for a seasoned diver not supporting the dive shop, it is that attitude towards me from some dive shop owners that is self fulfilling. Granted I don't buy the big ticket items often, but I do buy. I can't help it if some of the gear I buy, they don't sell, or even order at a reasonable price. Having a large customer base keeps a business alive, a dive shop being specialized dive travel agency is counting on an affluent clientele and no downturn in the economy, kind of like depending on gear sales to new divers who are now moving to the Internet.



Bob

 

[Wookie]

Hi Wookie,

Thanks for your definition of a vacation diver. I thought I was a high-level vacation diver. I am not. I guess I should now consider myself a Hobbyist diver.

See link for details on Hobbyist diver:
An Evaluation of the Modern Scuba Diving Training Industry

You taught me something again Wookie.
markm

I like the pyramid, although I would have given it different labels, that's just nomenclature. The dive shops in Asia make their living on what the pyramid calls Experiential Divers. They are happy to make their dough on training folks who may or may not ever dive again. The dive shops in the US want to turn the Experiential diver into a serious Hobbyist or Highly committed diver instead of just going with the flow and training a ton of Experiential Divers and allowing them to progress (it that's the term, maybe not) at their own pace. Of course, many dive shops are located where you can't dive.... So they try to turn their divers into divers who go on dive vacations. I think it turns out badly for the industry. I can go into a bike shop and get my Huffy tuned up and not be the least interested in buying a Pinarello. A Pinarello doesn't meet my needs, nor do a BP&W meet the needs of most Experiential or Occasional divers. But a dive shop sure pushes them hard.

 

[Wookie]

I guess I just dive with a different type of diver than what some of you folks are use to seeing.

Most of us are "vacation divers" meaning that we don't dive locally in the quarry nor do they. My diving is while on vacation to various places like the Caribbean, the Socorro Islands, Sea of Cortez, Palau, Fiji, etc. etc. Everyone knows how to set up their gear. Some places require a guide to be in the water and if that's the case I typically try to keep that person in sight but I'm usually doing my own thing. As far as I know none of us are nervous on a dive unless some of the folks are but never mention it. I have no problem finding the boat if I need to. Pretty much all of us would fall into what I have described.

Most of the group I am with are experienced divers. We probably range from a few hundred to some in the group have thousands. What I tend to see in these types of discussions is that "vacation divers" are some group of folks that don't know what they are doing, are afraid of their own shadows, and need their hands held every step of the way. But I seldom see those folks. See you can be a "vacation diver" and have lots of experience. You can even have more experience than some "serious divers" whatever that term means anyway. I know a few vacation divers that have over 5000 dives and would put them up against any serious diver I know.

Maybe someone can define what is a "serious diver".

In my opinion, if you go on dive vacations, which I know you do, I would consider you to be a hobbyist or serious diver.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

What I mean is guys like yourself seem to look down on "vacation divers" almost as if they are a nuisance to the sport.

The funny thing is, no one except folks like you even care about stuff like that. I've been lucky enough to travel all over the world and be on dive boats with hundreds of other divers. No one ever asks, "Hey, are you a PADI diver or NAUI diver"? Never do I hear anyone say, "Would you consider yourself a serious diver or vacation diver". People are just out there having a good time and that's what matters to them. These conversations makes for great SB chatter and internet talk but that's about it. The only division is the division that's in your mind or maybe the division you create around you. I've never seen it in the 27 years I've been diving. But maybe I don't hang with the "Cool Kids".

I don't look down on vacation divers. It makes me happy that people can enjoy the beauty of the underwater world at whatever their level of interest and level of dedication. You are definitely not a nuisance to the sport.

Professionals in any sport live in a different world than those who do it for fun and they live in a much different world than the occasional participant. Like you said, most people don't care about the stuff I, and others like me, care about. My girlfriend is a pro figure skater and lives in a world similar to mine. The stuff that she and the other coaches care about, the politics of US Figure Skating and Professional Skater's Association, rink vs. rink, club vs. club, and the years spent developing the craft are very similar to diving. When you live it 24/7 you are exposed to diving, skating, or other fun activity more often and in a different way. My girlfriend was on the ice at a resort the other night where all of the other skaters were just there to have fun. It's a beautiful secluded resort in the mountains. Everyone was having a good time. My girlfriend left the ice to a standing ovation because few of vacation skaters had ever seen anything like her in person. While she enjoyed being there with me in a romantic setting, she was annoyed with one of her boots. She thought she did most spins really well. She thought her shoot the duck could have been lower and liked only one of her jumps. As soon as she put on her skate guards, she was texting a skate director in NJ and several of her students. Then, began griping about "work."

We work while others play. Those at play are usually unaware, blissfully so, of those things that pros notice and have on their minds. Even when we aren't working there is rarely an "off" button when it comes to sport. Since my local dive center was a training agency HQ, I've been immersed in the industry for over 35 years. I notice things from that perspective. As a long-time lifeguard, I cannot go to the beach and not look at it as a lifeguard. I've tried.

I also am aware of my surroundings. I like to start sh*t online at at popular sites, but when on boats where there are people on vacation, I know they just want to have fun. Some may have saved a long time to travel and don't need me giving unsolicited advice, opinions, etc. I've heard, "Wow! You guys are the only nice tech divers we've ever met," more than once. You might be surprised how well I can play tour guide for the vacationing divers and how often I take the occasional divers for those occasional dives. Like you said, "These conversations make great SB chatter ..."