Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[markmud]

Dive Bermuda wouldn't let me and a former girlfriend, who was a PDIC instructor and PADI DM, rent single tanks to jump in the water that was literally covering the steps of the dive shop at high tide. We explained we only had been wearing doubles for years. We didn't know if we gained weight and would need more lead than we thought in a single in the ocean. We just wanted to do a dive in 10 feet of water so that we'd be ready for a morning dive the next day without having any problems and slowing things down for the guides and others. I produced instructor, instructor trainer, instructor trainer evaluator C-cards from 3 agencies at sport to cave levels. No go. They said we needed a guide. We were willing to pay $100 because my girlfriend was producing the Quincy Jones concert over the next week and she'd only be able to dive one day prior and one day after the show. They said no guide would be willing to dive in front of the shop. Not even for $100. I called BS on that because I was a dive guide in the islands. $100 cash to jump in the water for a weight check? Take their money!!! I'll be right there!!!

Hi Trace,

Sometimes I think that I must be the reason that I get this treatment. But others, like you, have stories of their own. Maybe I am not the problem.

Thanks,
markm

 

[Wookie]

Or perhaps the problem is your perspective? Again, just playing devil’s advocate. No offence intended nor answer required.

I don’t think anyone is mean intentionally, but some tech instructors are condescending and have no respect for other divers who are not like them or who do not have the same views on diving.

Without going too far down a road I really don't want to, I'm a tech diver and dive instructor. I do not teach OW because I'm not very good at it. I just don't have the patience for it, and there are some awesome OW instructors out there. It's my shortcoming and I own it.

But for those who come truly wanting to learn something, I will spend tens or more hours and a lot of angst to help you learn. And I don't personally know a single instructor out there who feels differently. As Trace (who is one of the most curmudgeonly young guys I know) says, if he sees you on the boat and you are struggling with something, he will put aside his dives or his girlfriend or his next born to help.

I think what gets lost in translation is how we actually treat tech students vs. how we treat OW/AOW/Rescue divers. That level of diver is a sponge for knowledge, and they soak it in, which is incredibly satisfying for an OW instuctor. But when we see tech students who haven't mastered the skills required to dive OW, much less the class they came for (or the trip they paid for) we tend to get a bit short, and when we see it over and over and over again, we tend to be a bit grumpy.

So when you find your sidemount instructor, be it Andy or Trace or Edd or The Chairman, go to that person with the skills you need to begin the class already firmly established. If you expect those guys to fix your trim and buoyancy, they will get mad because you arent there for a trim and buoyancy class, a prerequisite for sidemount is to already be trim and buoyant.

You come to me for a trim and buoyance evaluation and class if you need it. I love making good divers better. And you'll just think we're diving together.

 

[MichaelMc]

I don’t think anyone is mean intentionally, but some tech instructors are condescending and have no respect for other divers who are not like them or who do not have the same views on diving.

Diver skill, avoiding the term level, seems a challenge on the board and industry. How do you talk about training better divers without pointing out that some lack something. Many have fun swimming around and seeing the fish. That is great! If they’re kicking up the bottom and destroying the coral, that part is bad and warrants fixing. Some take that examining how to fix that as an attack on them, if they realize they might be in that group.

Part of the industry discussion is how we/shops/instructors should be training divers, realizing that many just want to swim around looking at fish once or twice, maybe a year. Sometimes the nuance gets lost between: “Your trim should to be more horizontal.”, “You're kicking up and crashing into the bottom, destroying sea life.”, and “Your instructor should have shown you more about buoyancy/trim, here is some help.”

Edit: Maybe we should talk about looking at invertebrates and the coral? That would make it more obvious to not touch the bottom.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

As Trace (who is one of the most curmudgeonly young guys I know)

It ain't the years, boy, it's the miles.

 

[HantsDiver]

I think what gets lost in translation is how we actually treat tech students vs. how we treat OW/AOW/Rescue divers. That level of diver is a sponge for knowledge, and they soak it in, which is incredibly satisfying for an OW instuctor. But when we see tech students who haven't mastered the skills required to dive OW, much less the class they came for (or the trip they paid for) we tend to get a bit short, and when we see it over and over and over again, we tend to be a bit grumpy.

And this is in itself is possibly the most self-defeatist negative outlook that you can have.

I work in the field of electrical engineering. I actually work for a University (I've never gone into my day job on here before) - but I also go out as a contractor. And every day I meet PhD's who are not on point. I meet guys who have all the 3/4/7 year degrees who are not showing up and doing what I think they should do. And I NEVER get grumpy. I smile and take them for a coffee - I make them believe that not only are they capable but deserve to work at a higher level than they are now. Then I go to work. I sometimes don't sleep for days to work with them. And I never ever get grumpy.

I could complain about peoples undergraduate degrees. I could complain about internal management and training. I could complain about PhD supervisors. But I never ever ever do that. Because if I surround myself with negativity I lose two things - my ability to fix a problem, and my ability to learn from someone who "knows less than me".

But here is the thing. I don't expect anything. I don't believe the world owes me a living. I don't wake up in the morning and think I'm amazing. I accept I've worked hard to get what I have. And I acknowledge that everyone is capable. And I focus on the positives. I don't make my entire focus about money and chasing that rubbish - I chose to go to the worst areas of London and into prisons and teach people Maths - for absolutely nothing. And when I go to those kids and those prisons I give the same effort when I'm paid nothing to when I'm paid decent money. Because I have enough respect for myself to give it everything or not do it all.

A few people on this thread need to look at themselves in the mirror. If they are complaining about their lack of success they need to question if it's everyone else's fault or if they are doing something wrong.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I guess I'm a very committed hobbyist. I have no interest in technical diving, caves, serious wrecks or pro photo/video. On the other hand, I do 200 dives per year, go on four diving vacations, and own a 2nd home in a prime diving location that I visit often.

I'm not much good to any of my local shops. I own more than enough equipment for myself and the three other divers in my family, I don't buy very much. I don't go on any shop trips, I organize all my own trips and travel solo or with my family. Since 2005, I've taken only one course, solo, so that people who don't know me will let me dive by myself. So unless a shop owns the boat I'm on or fills my tank, they get very little from me. I guess I don't do very much to prevent more and more shops from going out of business. I do contribute a fair amount to the overall dive economy, I would imagine, like many divers similar to me do. I believe there are a fair number of divers who meet the description, I meet them all the time while I'm diving

Don’t worry about it.
It’s not our responsibility (people who have already spent thousands) to keep feeding dive shops so they can stay in business. It’s the dive shops (and cert agencies) responsibility to find new ways to get new divers into the loop to keep them fed.
We’ve done our job already and made our contribution.
I also don’t have a 35 year old kid living in my garage either. At some point both kids and dive shops need to stop sucking off the titty of the older generation, and find ways to survive.

 

[Wookie]

And this is in itself is possibly the most self-defeatist negative outlook that you can have.

I work in the field of electrical engineering. I actually work for a University (I've never gone into my day job on here before) - but I also go out as a contractor. And every day I meet PhD's who are not on point. I meet guys who have all the 3/4/7 year degrees who are not showing up and doing what I think they should do. And I NEVER get grumpy. I smile and take them for a coffee - I make them believe that not only are they capable but deserve to work at a higher level than they are now. Then I go to work. I sometimes don't sleep for days to work with them. And I never ever get grumpy.

I could complain about peoples undergraduate degrees. I could complain about internal management and training. I could complain about PhD supervisors. But I never ever ever do that. Because if I surround myself with negativity I lose two things - my ability to fix a problem, and my ability to learn from someone who "knows less than me".

But here is the thing. I don't expect anything. I don't believe the world owes me a living. I don't wake up in the morning and think I'm amazing. I accept I've worked hard to get what I have. And I acknowledge that everyone is capable. And I focus on the positives. I don't make my entire focus about money and chasing that rubbish - I chose to go to the worst areas of London and into prisons and teach people Maths - for absolutely nothing. And when I go to those kids and those prisons I give the same effort when I'm paid nothing to when I'm paid decent money. Because I have enough respect for myself to give it everything or not do it all.

A few people on this thread need to look at themselves in the mirror. If they are complaining about their lack of success they need to question if it's everyone else's fault or if they are doing something wrong.

I call BS. If you have a student who shows up in your class who can't do basic math, do you make the entire class wait and do the remediation that's required, or do you boot them and wonder how they got passed through to you? You don't have time to remediate folks who can't do boolean logic when they get to PhD level electrical engineering. You can't possibly punish an entire class by holding them all up so you can teach basic algebra and geometry.

You may not get grumpy, but you don't don't mess around with them if they are unprepared by their previous professor to learn what you have to offer.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I also don’t have a 35 year old kid living in my garage either.

I call dibs on Eric's garage!!! Ha! The rest of you dive pros can suck it in your Maytag refrigerator boxes.

 

[Wookie]

I call dibs on Eric's garage!!! Ha! The rest of you dive pros can suck it in your Maytag refrigerator boxes.

I live in a nice canoe. I tell myself it's drinking Bud Light.

 

[HantsDiver]

I call BS. If you have a student who shows up in your class who can't do basic math, do you make the entire class wait and do the remediation that's required, or do you boot them and wonder how they got passed through to you? You don't have time to remediate folks who can't do boolian logic when they get to PhD level electrical engineering. You can't possibly punish an entire class by holding them all up so you can teach basic algebra and geometry.

You may not get grumpy, but you don't teach them if they aren't ready to learn what you have to offer.

I'm based in the UK. And my "charity" work doesn't work in the same way as the US system. What I actually do is stay and work 1 and 1 with someone for as long as I need. Because the reward for me is the success - not taking the easy route and demanding people come in ready to pass. Most of my 'work' in this area is 1 on 1 - apart from in prisons where nearly everyone is starting from the bottom.

Boolian algebra isn't related to my field of EE. But the QM is really important. And if someone isn't ready to learn they get motivated - that's my job. I don't winge and I get on with it.

I've done the same with diving. I don't choose to be negative. For the record, I found it QUICKER and EASIER to get people to hover in some semblance of trim than in a buddha position. And I've done a reasonable job of getting worried students to focus on buoyancy than a mask removal and replace. But I'm not trying to sell anything on here. I have the ability to be 100% honest because I'm not financially invested in it.