Electronic signatures for digital dive logs

[Ean86]

Are there any dive logs out there that will allow you to enter an instructor number, buddy, multiple buddies and their signature(s)? I ask because people have said that with electronic logs alone you may have more difficulty getting some certifications and proving you've dove what your log shows. I think that's a little stupid. IMHO I think it would be far easier to make up a paper log than it would be to have your dive computer show, a dive profile, times, air consumption, temperatures, etc. Anyway I'm just not sure why we don't have signatures in these apps.

I think having a "signature" field for your buddy/buddies, or instructor would be something that any electronic dive log should have if the paper versions have always had them. Some of us electronically sign documents all the time whether it be a document for a loan, a mortgage, documents for work, etc.

Also pretty much all phones/tablets and tablets I have seen are touch screen so why couldn't we sign with a our fingers at the end of a dive? Just like some of us do with paper logs, couldn't you just get rid of all of that for those that really want to be 100% electronic at this point? Anyone else have some thoughts on this? If you have an app that already has this please let me know. Thanks!

 

[Outbound]

I use Mac-Dive, and the desktop/laptop version allows this. I can't seem to find it in the iOS version though. Like you, I think it's far easier to falsify a paper log than a digital one that has all the data you pulled off of your dive computer. Sounds to me that those who claim it's a problem are of the "I once had a friend who knew a guy whose neighbor had a problem with a dive operator accepting his electronic log" variety. I'd like to hear some first-hand accounts from folks who have had recent troubles.

 

[2airishuman]

In practice it is rare for anyone to want to see your log so this is all something of a tempest in a teapot. There are minimum dive requirements for DM, solo, and tech programs. I would be surprised if there are many instructors who would not accept a reasonably detailed electronic log, whether there are signatures or not.

FWIW, the gold standard of log confirmation, whether for diving or anything else, is to select a handful of entries and confirm them independently. That way, when someone forges sigs on a log that says they dived, say, the Madeira, you can find out that the park service log shows that no one dived the Madeira that day, because there was a 25 knot offshore wind.

 

[Ean86]

In practice it is rare for anyone to want to see your log so this is all something of a tempest in a teapot. There are minimum dive requirements for DM, solo, and tech programs. I would be surprised if there are many instructors who would not accept a reasonably detailed electronic log, whether there are signatures or not.

FWIW, the gold standard of log confirmation, whether for diving or anything else, is to select a handful of entries and confirm them independently. That way, when someone forges sigs on a log that says they dived, say, the Madeira, you can find out that the park service log shows that no one dived the Madeira that day, because there was a 25 knot offshore wind.

That makes complete sense to me. I've just had some instructors harp on it but I'm logging all of it electronically anyway. I've just never really understood why you need the paper version if you have the means to do it electronically. Thanks for the input

 

[tomfcrist]

That makes complete sense to me. I've just had some instructors harp on it but I'm logging all of it electronically anyway. I've just never really understood why you need the paper version if you have the means to do it electronically. Thanks for the input

Some instructors are self righteous...they can have some “interesting” recommendations for just about everyone they meet in the diving world. Find an instructor capable of critical/logical thought....because the ones you are talking to, are probably also crap divers/crap instructors. You know, the ones that will tell you that you will immediately die if PPO2 goes above 1.6...etc.

 

[GreggS]

In Subsurface, when I download the dives from my DC, and then go back to look at the dive profile, it shows what computer I downloaded the data from. I don't see how any that could be forged, although I'm sure if someone wanted to they might could find a way. It appears to me that the computer stamp would be more trustworthy than a signature on any type of dive log.

Of course, I do see the need for an instructors signature in the logbook when doing any type of class, but for anything else, I agree that the electronic is more reliable and trustworthy than manual.

 

[dmaziuk]

Anything other than key-based crypto signatures is just as easy to forge as a paper scribble, if not easier. Crypto signatures require a whole lot of infrastructure that I just don't see anyone creating for dive logs -- not enough market to even pay the expenses, and a system for verifying an instructor's signature is nowhere near zero-cost. Even if it's already commonplace for displaying that little padlock icon in your browser's URL bar.

I do have my certification dives logged and signed by the instructor in the PADI log book that was part of the OW kit. If e.g. I do "specialty" dives toward AOW cert, I'll have those logged and signed there. The regular dives? -- Nobody ever asked.

 

[dmaziuk]

In Subsurface, when I download the dives from my DC, and then go back to look at the dive profile, it shows what computer I downloaded the data from. I don't see how any that could be forged, although I'm sure if someone wanted to they might could find a way.

Seriously? You save your log in XML file and it has right at the top

<settings>
<divecomputerid model='Cressi Leonardo' deviceid='deadbeef' nickname='Cressi Leonardo (deadbeef)'/>
</settings>

Try changing that deviceid with Notepad and see what you get on the next subsurface run.

PS. it's a "replace all" since that deviceid is in every logged dive.

 

[jonhall]

Are there any dive logs out there that will allow you to enter an instructor number, buddy, multiple buddies and their signature(s)? I ask because people have said that with electronic logs alone you may have more difficulty getting some certifications and proving you've dove what your log shows.

DiveLogDT on my MacBook and the mobile companion app Dive Log for my iPhone and iPad Pro (from moremobilesoftware) will allow you to add multiple dive buddies, an instructor or DM name where you can also type in their number, and one large space where multiple signatures can be "scribbled" in. So you could get signatures on a mobile device right there on a boat dive while everyone is still gathered together. If you electronically sign like I do on some devices, you would probably think I didn't know how to write! Now if you had a stylus, that might make it more legible.

I have never had anyone e-sign my mobile dive log, but you have me thinking now. Since I download the dive data from my dive computer to my laptop after a trip and the signatures would be on my iPhone, I would need to make sure that when the two sync together (through Bluetooth), all information still shows up for the dive.

I'll experiment with that unless someone else has already done it.

 

[FinnMom]

Signatures have been discussed before. From many previous threads, it seems that most people do not get their logbooks signed. Lots of people don't even log their dives, or log only the points that that are of interest to them. So I think you are solving a problem/need that does not exist, or the occasions of need are so rare that they aren't worth worrying about.
I've had 1 buddy on 1 dive in my life that has asked me to sign his logbook, and that was probably to avoid admitting he had forgot my name