Electronic signatures for digital dive logs

[Blasto]

Are there any dive logs out there that will allow you to enter an instructor number, buddy, multiple buddies and their signature(s)? I ask because people have said that with electronic logs alone you may have more difficulty getting some certifications and proving you've dove what your log shows.

The only certification for which I've commonly seen an operation dig through dive logs and look for signatures is instructor, sometimes DM. Otherwise they just ask, and a computer log is more than enough "just in case".

30 minutes in the water with someone is a better proof of their qualifications than 30 minutes digging through their dive logs. Can't forge trim and line skills, and if you can, you have them. Logbooks have always run on an honor system - it's a lot of effort to invent a hundred individual dives with respective guides and buddies, and much less socially acceptable than one false number.

 

[dmaziuk]

Don't trust the cloud either.

Current SOP seems to be build a sizeable user base, wrap the whole thing in gift packaging, and sell it to MicroFacePlant for a cool billion bucks. Which typically is not something you signed up for back when you signed up. So yeah... the level of trust is high in the cloud.

 

[jonhall]

I ask because people have said that with electronic logs alone you may have more difficulty getting some certifications and proving you've dove what your log shows.

Having already responded a few times to the other part of the OP's original post, I thought I'd throw in an idea on proving your logbook. Keeping this very simple as there are a lot of variables to consider, I have always thought that with todays technology, the following could be done, benefitting today's divers.

To really keep it simple, let's pretend there is only one dive organization, PADI in this case:

After dives are completed, pertinent information (that may be important for divers looking to work toward higher certifications in the future) is recorded, such as site, depth, time, type/conditions of dive, and DM's cert. number, and would be sent to the PADI worldwide database by the PADI certified dive op and linked the the certification number of the diver. This would be an official record. You would be able to see all of your dives/certifications (your dive log) but not alter them. Keeping you're own other type of dive log to be able to record stamps, signatures, notes, etc... would be up to you.

A dive op can already access a diver's certifications and some dive ops record dive information on their own systems now and keep it for years (Ocean Frontiers in Grand Cayman for example.) There would be more responsibility for the DM/dive op but Ocean Frontiers would only be missing a step of sending the info to PADI (and PADI would have to create a program to accept the info.)

*Playing tennis in the USTA (United States Tennis Association) there is a database that either a tournament director or a captain of a team can input scores into of matches played (team captain input is verified by an opposing captain with a way to work out any descepencies.) From team matches played, a player rating is determined. Anyone can go into the system and see my rating and the results of every tennis match I ever played under USTA. There are many other examples of databases (BMV, banks, store purchases, etc) where huge amounts of information of past activity can be stored.

Some things that would have to be worked out:
*Since there is more than one diving organization, something would have to be worked out to include non-PADI dives (in my example)
*A way to record dives for those ops that are not tech current (maybe snail mail) How do dive ops send records now for a diver who completed a certification with them??
*Solo dives????
*A way to include, as official or unofficial, dives for those that would like to add their first 3000 dives!

I know.....crazy idea!

 

[Steve_C]

DM's cert. number,

What DM? So I go out on a dive boat. I have a buddy. There is no DM in the water. The crew has no idea how deep I went. Did I stay on the hang line at 15 ft? Did I dig in the sand at 90 ft?

The boat operator has no idea how many dives I did. I bought a ride and paid for it. Maybe I got seasick and did not do any dives. Maybe I just did one of the two. The crew does not keep track of that. Their job is to see that the same number of bodies get out of the water that went in to it.

Now we add in shore dives. There may be no op.

What is a PADI dive? PADI does not do dives. PADI sells course materials and charges fees.

 

[Blasto]

To really keep it simple, let's pretend there is only one dive organization, PADI in this case:

Honestly, I'd rather pretend there was no PADI. The world would've been a slightly nicer place.

sent to the PADI worldwide database by the PADI certified dive op

So dives done without a dive op don't count?

This is in direct contradiction to PADI's model, which isn't based on dive ops, but rather has each instructor certify their student as a diver independently, with or without any dive op present, and those divers to then dive with any other certified diver.

Furthermore, even if we switched to a wrong model that treats all divers as ISO 24801-1 "Supervised divers", it would simply shift the center of trust one step up the chain, creating dive log mills.

 

[jonhall]

What DM? So I go out on a dive boat. I have a buddy. There is no DM in the water. The crew has no idea how deep I went. Did I stay on the hang line at 15 ft? Did I dig in the sand at 90 ft?
The boat operator has no idea how many dives I did. I bought a ride and paid for it. Maybe I got seasick and did not do any dives. Maybe I just did one of the two. The crew does not keep track of that. Their job is to see that the same number of bodies get out of the water that went in to it.
Now we add in shore dives. There may be no op.
What is a PADI dive? PADI does not do dives. PADI sells course materials and charges fees.

So dives done without a dive op don't count?
This is in direct contradiction to PADI's model, which isn't based on dive ops, but rather has each instructor certify their student as a diver independently, with or without any dive op present, and those divers to then dive with any other certified diver.
Furthermore, even if we switched to a wrong model that treats all divers as ISO 24801-1 "Supervised divers", it would simply shift the center of trust one step up the chain, creating dive log mills.

let's pretend there is only one dive organization, PADI in this case:

Wow! I get the idea that some people don't like PADI. The organization isn't important in this example. Would the reaction have been different or the same had I use SSI or NAUI as the pretend organization? Let's instead pretend the only dive organization is called ABC Scuba who specializes in collecting dive information.

some dive ops record dive information on their own systems now and keep it for years (Ocean Frontiers in Grand Cayman for example.)

Have been with a couple of dive ops who, on the boat, did ask and record dive info, so some crews do keep track of that. In so many activities, be it business, hobbies, sport, education, etc..., someone is recording information that the participant doesn't have (or need) to keep track of. Personally, not aspiring to advance my diving by getting another certification, I could care less about keeping track of dives (although I do), but for those who may aspire, wouldn't it be nice if there were a system that kept an official record that the diver, or a diving organization the diver wanted to be certified through, could access? To answer my own question, I would be okay with it.

Some things that would have to be worked out:
*Since there is more than one diving organization, something would have to be worked out to include non-PADI dives (in my example)
*A way to record dives for those ops that are not tech current (maybe snail mail) How do dive ops send records now for a diver who completed a certification with them??
*Solo dives????
*A way to include, as official or unofficial, dives for those that would like to add their first 3000 dives!

each instructor certify their student as a diver independently, with or without any dive op present

Not being an expert, but wouldn't the instructor then need to send the students info to a certifying organization - one that could record individual dive info as well?

Said there would be things (too many to mention for me) to work out for the perfect scenario. I was just thinking about those divers who have indicated they need proof of dives and a possible way to achieve it.

I should have made SB the official database. Certified instructors,DMs, ops (whoever the responsible party would be) would send the dives completed for a SB member to show up on their profile page. . Would still have to work out the solo dives, dives with friends, honesty, or whatever else gets in the way.

 

[Steve_C]

I have nothing against PADI. I have taken several PADI courses (and SSI and SDI) My statement was just about the business model and how it meshes with your idea. I sort of object to being lumped in with PADI bashing.

I have done a number of buddy dives with new divers in the ocean and a quarry. I will happily sign a logbook if they want. There is no way I am going to go through the hassle of submitting any kind of report in less it is part of a class or course. This whole idea seems more in tune with vacation divers or divers who only dive on led dives and greatly underestimates the effort involved. Seems like a major effort with small reward.

 

[kelemvor]

Seems odd to me. The only time I've been asked to provide a detailed log was when I was applying to dive with an aquarium who had some kind of scientific diver certification thing they needed to check off boxes for. They wanted the logs on paper but were perfectly happy to accept a printout from subsurface. I've never had an instructor actually ask to inspect my log. Every instructor I've used (if it's a "new to me" instructor) will ask about my diving. Then they'll arrange to do a dive with me so they can evaluate my skills themselves.

I've never ever had a boat operation ask to see my logs. Sometimes (but not always) they want to see my c-card. I stopped logging entirely two or three years ago because the dive computer I was using at the time had a compatibility issue with win10.

I guess if you live in a landlocked state where it's harder to arrange to dive with someone for evaluation maybe logs would play a bigger role?

 

[Steve_C]

I did certs with several agencies (SDI, PADI, SSI). I had log books checked for MD (SDI) and DM (PADI). Was to show that I had done the right nurmber of dives and right certs. SDI MD accepts certs from other agencies. The only time that any one cared about signatures was where the signatures were of an instructor for a cert on the dives which were part of the course.