Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think you are missing the point. Again, that is great as an affirmation.

But are you suggesting that if an instructor takes a student to a site that is not obviously frequented by other shops it is inappropriate? How is the student to know if it is or isn't?

Good instructors do good things. Good sites tend to be busy and / or crowded. Some good sites may not be, for a numer of possible reasons.

A student is not in a position to know ahead of time whether they have a good or trustworthy instructor, although it is understandable that the default opening position will be to believe that they do. Saying that good instructors do X, Y, or Z does not change the fact that the vast majority of students will trust their instructor whether or not their instructor deserves that trust because they do not have the knowledge or experience to know any better. It doesn't matter that good instructors will educate their students on how to know better. Those aren't the instructors we are talking about.

I do get your point. Yes, if a dive site is empty, it may be just an off weekend for many shops. In my area, Cove 2 is the training site, but there are days where no one is there. All I am trying to say that is if a student is at a busy dive site, they should realize that it is considered an appropriate dive site. The opposite may or may not be true. It is unreasonable to expect a student to know.

The issue you have brought up is ultimately unsolvable in my opinion. It just isn't reasonable for a student upon learning what dive site they will have their open water dives to then research its appropriateness.

 

[gcarter]

I do get your point. Yes, if a dive site is empty, it may be just an off weekend for many shops. In my area, Cove 2 is the training site, but there are days where no one is there. All I am trying to say that is if a student is at a busy dive site, they should realize that it is considered an appropriate dive site. The opposite may or may not be true. It is unreasonable to expect a student to know.

The issue you have brought up is ultimately unsolvable in my opinion. It just isn't reasonable for a student upon learning what dive site they will have their open water dives to then research its appropriateness.

Exactly. So the suggestions in this thread that it is the student's responsibility to somehow know better when they misplace their trust in an instructor ignores reality for many students who are not equipped to know better.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Exactly. So the suggestions in this thread that it is the student's responsibility to somehow know better when they misplace their trust in an instructor ignores reality for many students who are not equipped to know better.

I think the point that some are trying to make (and they can correct me), is that if a student feels uncomfortable, they should speak up. The problem is, the student will most likely think it is just them, and go ahead. Again, I don't know how to address this, other than to emphasize to my students that my courses are not a race. I of course have to set a pace, but I must also request feedback from my students to see if I need to adjust the pace. This thread has been helpful for me, so that as part of the dive briefing, I also cover how my students feel about the dive they are about to conduct.

 

[KenGordon]

They make the call, not me and it's not an automatic decision. Of course we discuss their decision so they have something to ponder, but it's their decision.

Now, if they had said yes, I would have vetoed their decision and discussed with them the reasoning behind it.

It is not their decision, you actually decide.

What happens when you think it is ok, and it really is, but they are being genuinely too pathetic and need to persuaded into the water? And how can they tell the difference between that and an instructor pushing them on for his own reasons (time pressure, numbers, insensitivity or whatever)?

 

[lowviz]

I once saw an instructor SCREAMING a diver's name over and over. I walked over figuring that this was going to be good.

Diver in question was on his first swim out in a quarry to the floats and down-lines to the platform. He was frozen on the surface with one fin out of the water. He eventually came to.

IMHO, he was not totally prepared to assess his situation. All our young lives some of us were told to stay away from deep water. He saw the bottom fall away and went into hysterical paralysis. No reason he couldn't get past that. But I question his ability to assess the situation.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I once saw an instructor SCREAMING a diver's name over and over. I walked over figuring that this was going to be good.

Diver in question was on his first swim out in a quarry to the floats and down-lines to the platform. He was frozen on the surface with one fin out of the water. He eventually came to.

IMHO, he was not totally prepared to assess his situation. All our young lives some of us were told to stay away from deep water. He saw the bottom fall away and went into hysterical paralysis. No reason he couldn't get past that. But I question his ability to assess the situation.

I had a student in OW1 completely freeze at the surface, unable to descend down the line. I just had a DM take her into shore. I just don't screw around, as the water is dark and cold. If a student is not up to it, I have to place them aside and work with them later. The water is too cold, and I have to manage my students' physical comfort. If a student needs special attention, that that must be done later.

I found out later that she had a deep fear from childhood of dark water. Her father was in the class and didn't think it was appropriate to warn me. Of course, maybe he was just too busy from trying to flirt with other women in the class and being disruptive (that was my least pleasant class and taught me hard lessons to not let this sort of nonsense get out of hand as it affected everyone - mini rant over).

 

[The Chairman]

Not only do I think that many instructors do a poor job teaching limits, they also screw up teaching control, thus instilling fear into diving. Students should not be allowed out of confined water until they can demonstrate complete control of their buoyancy. It's not that hard to teach, but it does require the instructor to make that decision. It's essentially the first skill I teach and it gets reinforced throughout the class. Why?

Out of control => FEAR => PANIC => Bad decisions => Accident
​

No, there doesn't have to be a bad decision to precipitate an accident, just fear. Put a student in control of their buoyancy and you've eliminated the nascent fear of being out-of-control as a vector. I think it's the hidden vector of many of the accidents in our A&I forum. Moreover, if/when a student panics, you can almost guarantee an emotional outburst from their instructor.

When I became an instructor, a lot of emphasis was put on "student control". It's why we were taught to get our students to kneel in class. This is so backasswards as to be laughable. Tragically laughable, but laughable. Such control is an illusion. The more you try to keep your students in control by planting them on the bottom, the less control you actually have of your class. An instructor gains control over their class by giving that control to their students. This happens in confined water where students are required to master trim, buoyancy and propulsion. Again, this isn't hard but it does require the instructor to make a decision to not teach on their knees but while students hover. All of the traditional skills should be introduced and taught with the student mid-water. Make neutral buoyancy the first skill and build all other skills on top of it. The extra time you use at the beginning will be made up easily when you don't have to chase students bolting to the surface due to fear.

None of this is really hard, but we do have lazy instructors who don't seem to care. We also have decades of instructors being taught that they have control when their students are kneeling. If you're telling your students it's going to take a hundred dives to get your buoyancy down, you're lying to them and are a part of the problem. Harsh? No, it's the reality of the situation.

 

[The Chairman]

I think the point that some are trying to make (and they can correct me), is that if a student feels uncomfortable, they should speak up.

I agree with this. I try to instill a healthy skepticism of me in my students. It's for their own good that they realize that I can make bad judgements and I always throw in a few 'mickies' to keep them on their toes. They get major kudos when they catch me trying to pull a fast one on them.

 

[The Chairman]

What happens when you think it is ok, and it really is, but they are being genuinely too pathetic and need to persuaded into the water?

Pathetic? Rly? Calling a dive should never, ever be described as being "pathetic". Diving is always optional. There are lots of dives I would make where most would stay out of the water. There are a number others would make where I say "no way". If they are hesitant, ie scared of getting in the water under benign conditions, then you haven't done your job. I bet it's more a factor of the instructor being pathetic rather than the student.

When I get a minor student, their parents and I have a rather frank discussion. If little Jenny doesn't want to dive, they are not allowed to force her. If they can't agree to this, I won't teach their kid. Diving is a personal decision. You don't get to decide for me and I'm not going to pressure you into the water. That's just wrong. Make no doubt about it, my students decide if/when they are going to splash. I'll give them all the input I can, but ultimately it's their decision. I have had students decide not to dive easy dives and that usually means we're going back to the pool. Training is designed to eliminate fear through skills. If they aren't ready for OW and I have them there, then it's my fault and not theirs. I have put them into a situation where they weren't ready emotionally and that's my fault.

Here's another pet peeve of mine: Instructors blaming students for their own shortcomings. I have filled in for instructors on many classes. Often, I am shocked at how poorly the students are diving. In almost every instance the instructor blames the students. No. It's not the students' fault that you have way too many peeps in your class. It's not the students' fault you don't have the patience, insight or skill to teach basic skills. It's just not the students' fault that you don't have neutral buoyancy so you can't teach it. Stop blaming the student for your inability to teach. Figure out what you're doing wrong or get out of the business.

Many years ago, fresh out of my "kneeling phase", I was asked to teach a class of eight in Devil's Den. First, I would never agree to teach a class in there. Too many areas students shouldn't go. Second, eight is too many for efficient teaching. The bigger the class, the more you become a baby sitter and less an instructor. I limit class size to four. However, this was not my class, I'm doing a favor for a buddy, so I'll endure without comment. He tells me that he has this one horrible, horrible student who's too stupid to clear her mask and it's OK if I fail her. Rly? How on earth does an ethical instructor allow a student out of confined water without mastering all their skills. Again, he's only asking me to do two dives with these students, not to critique his teaching prowess. We get there, do a walk through, gear up and splash. The instructor has given me four skills they need to do to be finished and one is mask clearing. We descend to a platform where, without being asked, they all form a kneeling circle. I'm trying to get them off their knees, but kneeling is what they know, so it's not happening. It's obvious who the "horrible student" was as soon as we do the mask clearing. I stop her as she's so stinking anxious that it looks like she's blowing through half of her tank in a minute or two. So we finished the dive and as the students are heading up the steps, I keep her back. I ask her if I can help her with her mask skills and we sit in waist deep water. It's been a while, but I remember that her mask was on impossibly tight. We get it right and within a couple of minutes she's clearing her mask like a pro. On the second dive she clears her mask better than anyone else. What a turnaround. After the dives are done, we're putting up gear and she comes over in tears. According to her, the other instructor never spent a minute working through her issues with mask clearing. He yelled at her and told her if she couldn't do it, she was going to die. Yeah, yeah. He really told her that. He even admitted to telling her that when I told him that she had got it down. He never asked me how I did it.She went from zero to hero not because I'm an amazing instructor. No, I merely spent a few minutes analyzing and correcting her issues on one skill. No magic. No god-like powers. I simply gave a flying flip. No more and certainly no less.

Instructors: If a student looks like crap then it's your fault and not theirs. If a student can't learn a skill, then you're doing it wrong. Stop blaming the student for your own inadequacies. Reinvent yourself. Use the grey matter God gave you. Try a different method. Don't just think outside the box, stop living in one. We have an I2I forum: ask questions. The onus is on you to produce divers that are in control of their dive and free from fear without ever yelling at them or telling them how bad they are.

Sry for the longish posts. I feel very passionate about this.

 

[Compressor]

I don't like unduly negative or shaming threads, but I feel we should have a frank discussion about unacceptable behaviors by instructors. As a student, you have rights and expectations, but being new to the sport, you may or may not know where that line is. I think you have a need to know when your instructor is out of line.

To whit, this past ScubaBoard Invasion to Cozumel, @Moose met a couple of friends who were with another group. One of them was so excited that they were going to finish their certification. The next time Dan saw them the student was pretty distraught. Their instructor brought them down to 60 feet and asked them to clear their mask. It didn't go well. After the dive, two different instructors told them that they were the most difficult student they've ever worked with. Wow. I was pretty pissed at her instructors, though I didn't really tell her that. I just said, let me have a try. She was so anxious, that I could see ripples coming off her as she stood shaking in the pool. Wow. It took about an hour, but she's clearing her mask. However, she still has some work to do and has lost faith in her instructor. Hopefully, she and her fiance will make their way down so I can finish her course.

So, what was so bad? A couple of things and I'll list them.

• What was she doing in OW when she had never completed this skill in confined water?
  • Skills should be mastered in confined water before you proceed
• Where does a professional get off telling a student they were the "hardest"???
  • Creates unneeded anxieties
  • The instructors are the ones who failed: not the student!
  • It's nothing but an excuse for their laziness!
• Learning was subverted
  • Instead of preparing her to dive, they set her up for failure.
  
  No, I'm not talking about esoteric things like "no kneeling" during class. I'm talking about basic professional behavior and ethics. Mind you, I've been a witness to many, many classes in my time from the early seventies to the present and I've seen the good along with the bad. So what else should you expect or not expect? Here's my continued list (which may be edited as we discuss this).
  
  A Diving Student's Bill of Rights

• Fun
  • Your instructor should be encouraging
  • Your instructor should be patient
  • You should feel free to call a dive at any time and for any reason
    • With no repercussions
    • Yes, even in training
  • Bullying is not acceptable
  • Mocking is not acceptable
  • Classes can be thorough, challenging and still fun
• Safety
  • No student should ever be left unattended
  • No "trust me" dives
  • Adherence to standards
  • Appropriate class sizes for the environment
  • No overweighting students
  • All gear should be functional and serviced regularly
• Learning
  • Instructors should always set the example!
    • Monkey see: monkey do!
  • Skills should be mastered in the pool before OW dives
    • How to do the skill
    • When to do the skill
  • Adherence to standards
  • Trim and neutral buoyancy are not optional!
• Professionalism
  • Respect from your Instructor
    • No yelling or verbal abuse
      • Teach, don't yell
      • No demeaning remarks
    • Privacy
    • No inappropriate touching or advances
  • Dedication
    • Your instructor should be up-to-date in their skills and training methods
    • If a student, no matter the difficulty, doesn't quit, neither should the instructor
  • Ethics
    • Instructors should keep their promises and commitments

I could add that instructors should be excited and friendly as well as possess excellent diving skills, but that sort of stuff should go without saying.

A Student caveat: You are the most important key to learning how to Scuba Dive. Ultimately, your safety is up to you. If you don't feel comfortable with your instructor, the onus is on you to change that. Talk with them or fire them, just make sure you can trust and learn from them. Sure, it might cost you time and money, but it won't cause you injury or possibly your life. Take this seriously as your health and life depend on your choice of an instructor.

What did I miss? What don't you agree with? Anecdotal stories are more than welcome

This is a great post. Every instructor should make a copy of it an put in their log book or memorize the key points.

Like many, I've had some instructors that sucked even though they had big names and "reputations." Vice versa as well.