Fatality in the Vandenberg Wreck, Key West Florida
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Steelyeyes
Contributor
Wow. Oxygen vigorously enhances combustion but it is not flammable.
There is an awful lot of guessing going on on this thread. From the article I read, it says the diver tried to thumb the dive and the other diver went deeper into the wreck. This does not state the diver in the wreck even saw his buddy trying to thumb the dive yet people are saying he ignored his buddy. There is zero evidence to support that.
I have been with people who were focused on other things and I tried to thumb a dive due to getting close to my NDL. They never saw me and went deeper. I tried one more time to get their attention to no avail and decided to ascend while also keeping an eye on them. Granted this was not inside a wreck but it was outside a wreck.
Bottom line for me is, there is no evidence (nor do I expect to see any) that will tell us why the buddy kept going. It is sad to hear about another diver lost and I give my condolences to the family.
I have been with people who were focused on other things and I tried to thumb a dive due to getting close to my NDL. They never saw me and went deeper. I tried one more time to get their attention to no avail and decided to ascend while also keeping an eye on them. Granted this was not inside a wreck but it was outside a wreck.
Bottom line for me is, there is no evidence (nor do I expect to see any) that will tell us why the buddy kept going. It is sad to hear about another diver lost and I give my condolences to the family.
DeepSeaExplorer
Contributor
I look at this thru the lens of a solo diver.
This accident exposes a great weakness in the buddy system. In training, a lot of time is spent stressing the buddy system and how it’s not safe to dive alone. Almost no time is spent discussing what to do when the buddy system fails.
I know... I know... search for your buddy for 60 seconds and surface. That doesn’t work on deep dives with current or in a wreck.
It’s a little bit contradictory to tell open water students that it’s not safe to dive alone and then tell rescue divers to save themselves. The OW student doesn’t know his rescue diver buddy has been trained to abandon him when it gets dicey.
(Not saying that was the case here, but someone mentioned it.)
There needs to be more of an effort made to develop protocols for buddy diving failures so that both members of the team know what to expect. And, to help divers make the best decision when the time comes.
It would also reduce the second guessing afterwards and help the diver that has to live with the outcome to know he made the right decision.
The buddy system sometimes gives divers a false sense of security and they push farther than they would if diving solo. Most divers wouldn’t go inside a wreck if diving alone, probably wouldn’t go as deep either. But, having another diver with them emboldens them.
Unfortunately, dive agencies are so committed to the buddy system, they can’t acknowledge its weaknesses. So of course, they don’t want to spend time discussing what to do when it doesn’t work.
This accident exposes a great weakness in the buddy system. In training, a lot of time is spent stressing the buddy system and how it’s not safe to dive alone. Almost no time is spent discussing what to do when the buddy system fails.
I know... I know... search for your buddy for 60 seconds and surface. That doesn’t work on deep dives with current or in a wreck.
It’s a little bit contradictory to tell open water students that it’s not safe to dive alone and then tell rescue divers to save themselves. The OW student doesn’t know his rescue diver buddy has been trained to abandon him when it gets dicey.
(Not saying that was the case here, but someone mentioned it.)
There needs to be more of an effort made to develop protocols for buddy diving failures so that both members of the team know what to expect. And, to help divers make the best decision when the time comes.
It would also reduce the second guessing afterwards and help the diver that has to live with the outcome to know he made the right decision.
The buddy system sometimes gives divers a false sense of security and they push farther than they would if diving solo. Most divers wouldn’t go inside a wreck if diving alone, probably wouldn’t go as deep either. But, having another diver with them emboldens them.
Unfortunately, dive agencies are so committed to the buddy system, they can’t acknowledge its weaknesses. So of course, they don’t want to spend time discussing what to do when it doesn’t work.
Wreck + penetration +“solo”/ leaving buddy + no redundancy + no guideline + beyond knowledge/experience
= Recipe for Disaster
= Recipe for Disaster
Not disagreeing that it is good to have protocols and training. But reality is that some are there to learn and some just want the credit. Once they have the card they are free to do as they please and they do so. The thought of planning or having any guidelines is out the window. Had more than one insta buddy who was not interested in discussing the dive before hand. And had a lot of good ones. Some of the best instabuddies have been new divers. They listen and tend to stick to you like a remora.
Bob DBF
Contributor
I agree with your post, but want to point out that the buddy system dosen't fail when the divers are separated, it fails when the divers are not committed to staying togather. When training there should be more about techniques and how to maintain buddy contact, rather than the much larger emphasis on lost buddy procedure.
The follow the leader dives that I've seen instructors, and of course dive guides, use is a problem as it gives the impression that the buddy leader should be in front while diving. I would bet this causes most separations as maintaining contact is dificult, especially in lower viz waters. This is only one of the poor techniques for maintaining contact that is demonstrated by dive professionals. Granted the instructor has experience and a DM or two to help, but the new diver dosen't see that, they just see the technique.
As @Steve_C was saying above, if you insist on having a dive plan briefing, you can quickly determine whether the the instabuddy is actually interested in a buddy dive. If he is not, act accordingly.
Bob
Stoo
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Ya, the "bye bye" hand signal is probably the most common one my so-called buddies and I use. But then that's the understanding going in. We are all basically diving solo (and equipped to do so) so it's no biggie. Plus we can barely tolerate each other at the best of times.
On the other hand, if that isn't the plan, and people aren't prepared to dive alone, that's a different thing. But as @drrich2 points out, we're all adults. If someone doesn't want to come up after being asked to ascend, then so be it. If you don't feel comfortable ascending on your own, then that's on you, unless the "mentor" relationship was something you defined with your crappy buddy prior to the dive.
Some buddies truly suck, and there are several examples of exactly those in this thread.
I agree and would like to see more of this in OW training. However, my OW course (and, I imagine, all OW courses) emphasized not going into an overhead environment or otherwise exceeding the limits of your training, in addition to not diving solo. If someone comes out of that course with the idea that as long as they follow the buddy system, they can ignore those other limits, I don't think you can blame the training agency.
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