Advanced penetration of the Spiegel Grove Wreck
- Thread starter norwhal
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johndiver999
Contributor
Mr Norwhal:
Perhaps you could restore some people's confidence if you shared your detailed gas planning calculations which I presume would include the projected depth, distance and time inside the wreck and time estimates for descent, movement from the descent line to the entrance and also back to the mooring line. You might even throw in a few contingencies, like a freeflow or something.
I would think these types of plans should be prepared and be entirely defensible, after all you have "a lot" riding on getting these calculations correct.
I'd be interested to see them since I never dove the wreck and don't know how deep you plan on diving etc.
Thanks!
Perhaps you could restore some people's confidence if you shared your detailed gas planning calculations which I presume would include the projected depth, distance and time inside the wreck and time estimates for descent, movement from the descent line to the entrance and also back to the mooring line. You might even throw in a few contingencies, like a freeflow or something.
I would think these types of plans should be prepared and be entirely defensible, after all you have "a lot" riding on getting these calculations correct.
I'd be interested to see them since I never dove the wreck and don't know how deep you plan on diving etc.
Thanks!
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
How can we turn this thread in a positive direction? If we accept that hundreds of divers do limited penetrations on the Spiegel every season on an AL80; if we accept that the OP is experienced at running line, but maybe doesn't know SG local practice; if we accept that one of the most experienced SG divers on ScubaBoard has called Snoopy a (barely) technical dive, what advice can we give?
Okay, perhaps titling the thread "Advanced Penetration" was a bit much. No big deal. I think the OP's gotten the message that we think running line into the holds of the SG with two OW divers not carrying redundant gas might be a safety issue.
How can we reconcile what dozens of divers do every week with your safety concerns, while affording an experienced diver the chance to share some adventure with his friends?
The pool is now open.
johndiver999
Contributor
You seem to be suggesting that an awful lot of “practices” or circumstances be “accepted”.
I think it would be useful to clarify if those practices are consistent with typically accepted training agency guidelines. That would add some much needed objectivity.
People like me are disadvantaged by having zero local knowledge and have no clue how deep or how far back “snoopy” is. Just knowing the depth and horizontal distance with a hard ceiling (with and/or without any ambient light) would be very helpful in understanding the proposed dive.
The fact that the OP feels it is way “too much trouble” to make a back of the envelope calculation to support the idea that the plan is reasonably feasible - simply from a gas perspective, gives little credence to the idea that he is genuinely “seeking advice”.
I think it would be useful to clarify if those practices are consistent with typically accepted training agency guidelines. That would add some much needed objectivity.
People like me are disadvantaged by having zero local knowledge and have no clue how deep or how far back “snoopy” is. Just knowing the depth and horizontal distance with a hard ceiling (with and/or without any ambient light) would be very helpful in understanding the proposed dive.
The fact that the OP feels it is way “too much trouble” to make a back of the envelope calculation to support the idea that the plan is reasonably feasible - simply from a gas perspective, gives little credence to the idea that he is genuinely “seeking advice”.
lermontov
Contributor
i dont have any knowledge of the wreck - but to quote "as I swim down the first corridor which as I recall is the longest stretch and there will be no visible light at the end. If memory serves me correctly we make a right turn and will find the Snoopy Mascot"
This has potential for a drama - ive seen experienced divers start to stress in tight corridors when it starts to silt up and its likely that the corridor will be in poor condition for the last diver through. Theres no way of knowing how anyone will respond to a silt out unless they've been in that situation before
The OP's suggestion of reel management demonstrates a lack of experience in how easily that could turn bad, and by this stage your effectively the fifth time through the corridor winding the line around your hand. That is just asking for trouble.
how long is this corridor and how wide? these sort of dives are predominantly about managing risk - this doesnt sound like a prudent dive plan, id wager most experienced wreck divers have been caught out at some stage and its usually because they took things too casually or deviated from tried and true training methodology, be conservative.
This has potential for a drama - ive seen experienced divers start to stress in tight corridors when it starts to silt up and its likely that the corridor will be in poor condition for the last diver through. Theres no way of knowing how anyone will respond to a silt out unless they've been in that situation before
The OP's suggestion of reel management demonstrates a lack of experience in how easily that could turn bad, and by this stage your effectively the fifth time through the corridor winding the line around your hand. That is just asking for trouble.
how long is this corridor and how wide? these sort of dives are predominantly about managing risk - this doesnt sound like a prudent dive plan, id wager most experienced wreck divers have been caught out at some stage and its usually because they took things too casually or deviated from tried and true training methodology, be conservative.
OTF
Coney Island Whitefish Biologist
I typed the following message and was about to post it when the thread was locked. I PM'd OP and to his credit he replied that he would modify the plan to be a bit safer - or at least not attempt that line retrieval stunt.
OP, in this thread you have now heard the advice of numerous highly trained divers including well-respected cave and technical instructors. People who have lost friends, had near misses, and trained others to do this sort of penetration. They have unanimously said your plan is unsafe because of insufficient gas volume/redundancy, an irregular unsafe line running plan, and lack of training/experience for some or all of the team members. So you should make a new safer plan. Do a less ambitious penetration, bring more gas, get more training.
Don't leave line in the wreck. Laying line on a first dive, then doing a second dive along the same or reverse path to pick up the line is a thing. Or having another team subsequently run the same course and pick up the line. But don't wrap it around your hand alone at the end of a dive low on air.
Regarding the shopping card return comments, look up Cart Narcs on youtube for some ridiculous shopping-cart-return mayhem.
OP, in this thread you have now heard the advice of numerous highly trained divers including well-respected cave and technical instructors. People who have lost friends, had near misses, and trained others to do this sort of penetration. They have unanimously said your plan is unsafe because of insufficient gas volume/redundancy, an irregular unsafe line running plan, and lack of training/experience for some or all of the team members. So you should make a new safer plan. Do a less ambitious penetration, bring more gas, get more training.
Don't leave line in the wreck. Laying line on a first dive, then doing a second dive along the same or reverse path to pick up the line is a thing. Or having another team subsequently run the same course and pick up the line. But don't wrap it around your hand alone at the end of a dive low on air.
Regarding the shopping card return comments, look up Cart Narcs on youtube for some ridiculous shopping-cart-return mayhem.
Yes, I had thought of that and you drove the point home. In the video I took 2 years ago you can see how easily it gets silted out. If that line got hung up I'd have to cut myself free in low visibility.
Having done this dive before I know I'll have plenty of gas. Especially given that we had to swim all the way from the stern mooring ball.
Here ya go! I edited the original video after I filmed it so it's not continuous but it gives you a general idea.
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