Wing vs. Jacket

[cool_hardware52]

In my opinion, I have been trying very hard to "claim" that with regards to streamlining and venting there are no studies / data to support any "claims" with regards to which style BC is better streamlined or vents easier.

Quite true, there are no studies. I've said as much a couple times already. Is that your only point?

OTOH how you do explain the multitudes of BP&W users who report the very benefits at issues here, less drag and easier venting?

Are all these folks victims of mass hysteria, or has the "vast BP&W conspiracy" somehow cowed all unhappy BP&W users into silence?

Tobin

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Quite true, there are no studies. I've said as much a couple times already. Is that your only point?

OTOH how you do explain the multitudes of BP&W users who report the very benefits at issues here, less drag and easier venting?

Are all these folks victims of mass hysteria, or has the "vast BP&W conspiracy" somehow cowed all unhappy BP&W users into silence?

I've definitely noticed since getting one that I am exerting myself much less and in fact having to deliberately hold back when I think I'm barely finning if at all, to stay with buddies. I'm pretty sure - anecdotal yes of course - that this is because I am a point to and thru the water, rather than a 45 degree large surface area. I guess if you get your trim down pat with a jacket BC then all things being equal it might have less drag, who knows. But I think that in general the way a BP/W acts is to promote better trim and this is what creates less drag.

I have not seen "multitudes of BP&W users who report the very benefits at issues here." I have seen a "fair number" who repeat it a lot. But most leave out the details that InTheDrink included.

The other SB member / new divers who stayed with their old Vest BC's probably improved in dive proficiency with more dives and reading here as well.

A competent diver is in control of their trim. A badly trained, overweighted, lazy diver might be "forced" into a more horizontal position so that, "abracadabra" he has better trim and moves through the water easier, without actually having to learn the what and how. Yes, the diver is now more streamlined in the water, but the BP/W is not necessarily more streamlined than any other BC.

For a diver with good dive skills, there are many vest BC's that are very streamlined. :mooner:

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have not seen "multitudes of BP&W users who report the very benefits at issues here." I have seen a "fair number" who repeat it a lot. But most leave out the details that InTheDrink included.

There is little doubt that unhappy users are typically far more vocal than the satisfied, yet there are vanishingly few reports of unhappy BP&W converts.

Most, it appears, are receiving the benefits they anticipated.

How do you explain this? Have they all been brain washed?

BTW you have repeatedly demanded that BP&W manufacturers produce "proof" to support their claims concerning their product.

Can you provide any proof for your claims of "perfection" in your work product, i.e. the divers you have trained? Testimonials? Anything?

Since I have no problem producing new divers that have perfect "head slightly lower than fins" trim/swimming position in an ~24 hour PADI OW course,

Tobin

 

[hg frogman]

As I have already pointed, without response, in this very thread, the group of divers that have a quantitative measure of drag, i.e. cave divers use almost exclusively BP&W.

If they could penetrate further before reaching their turn pressures using different fins or different BC's etc. they would.

Further consider the near perfect record of satisfaction reported by BP&W converts here on SB.

The vast vast majority of BP&W converts report the BP&W is an improvement over their previous bc.

Many report reduced air consumption, and greater ease keeping pace with their companions. Even in the absence of hard data it is reasonable to conclude that this results from reduced drag.

Many also report they need far less ballast, much less than the ~6 lbs provided by the back plate, and improved buoyancy control.

Here again even in the absence of hard data it is reasonable to conclude that this is the result of easier and more complete venting.

Tobin

1) Cave divers dive doubles, and because of that are not at the edge for assessing "drag". Competent single-tank divers in nasty currents are closer to that edge. Because we are talking about single-tank diving (see the OP) it's pointless to quote cave divers as a proof of BP/Ws having less drag than good jacket-style BCDs.

2) Moreover, more and more cave divers use sidemounts, that are not strictly speaking BP/Ws, in order to "further penetrate", eg in narrow sumps.

3) Many (eg my wife) don't care about ranting on Scubaboard that they prefer their jacket-style BCD rather than their BP/W setup for single tank diving. After all, what the hell ? They are not trying to convert others ... On the other hand, those who are vocally defending jacket-style BCDs for single-tank diving are actually quite a few, and usually not the least experienced.

4) That divers feel better after their conversion to a BP/W can come from many reasons, including placebo/self-suggestion. It can also come from a better trim, and it seems to often be the case, especially for divers who use quite a lot of lead. But a competent diver who doesn't need/use more than, say, 12 pounds of lead can easily obtain the same trim (or even better) with a jacket-style BCD than with a BP/W. I don't feel more drag with my "trimmed" Scubapro T-Sport jacket than with my BP/W setups (which are amongst the very most streamlined) and I have reasons to suspect that my BP/Ws may actually have more drag.

5) A good "trimmed" jacket-style BCD (cumberbund and foam removed, etc) is not inherently more buoyant than a wing ; with this BCD, one won't use more lead than with a BP/W. And my jacket-style BCD is easier to vent than my BP/W setups. Actually, in my opinion, cheek is needed to dare say a BP/W is easier to vent than a good jacket-style BCD ! (Though good BP/Ws are no pain to vent).

 

[Crush]

But a competent diver who doesn't need/use more than, say, 12 pounds of lead can easily obtain the same trim (or even better) with a jacket-style BCD than with a BP/W. I don't feel more drag with my "trimmed" Scubapro T-Sport jacket than with my BP/W setups (which are amongst the very most streamlined) and I have reasons to suspect that my BP/Ws may actually have more drag.

In order to trim myself with my Zeagle Scout I put 8# on the top cam band, 8# in the rear dump pockets, and 16# on my belt.

Easy to achieve, good trim, and accomplished w/a BC.

 

[cool_hardware52]

4) That divers feel better after their conversion to a BP/W can come from many reasons, including placebo/self-suggestion.

So you do subscribe to the idea that the happy BP&W converts have been victims of brainwashing or self suggestion. This is sufficient to explain why one basically never sees unhappy new users here on SB? Powerful argument. Really well thought out.

5) A good "trimmed" jacket-style BCD (cumberbund and foam removed, etc) is not inherently more buoyant than a wing ;

So.... After one modifies a jacket BCD, i.e. changes it from the way it was originally sold if becomes more fit for use. Another powerful argument.

with this BCD, one won't use more lead than with a BP/W. And my jacket-style BCD is easier to vent than my BP/W setups. Actually, in my opinion, cheek is needed to dare say a BP/W is easier to vent than a good jacket-style BCD ! (Though good BP/Ws are no pain to vent).

My guess is you have limited experience with well designed wings. Many BCD's and some wings are difficult to Vent Fully i.e. to get all the gas out. Trapped gas requires More Ballast

It is routine for BP&W converts (you know the self deluded group you referenced above) to find they need 10 to 12 lbs less ballast than they did with their jacket.

~6 of these 12 are easy to explain, a SS plate and harness is about -6 lbs. The other 4-6 lbs? Foam and trapped (hard to vent) gas in their BC.

Tobin

 

[Stujiro]

Most, it appears, are receiving the benefits they anticipated.

How do you explain this? Have they all been brain washed?

Tobin

Without weighing in on the true merits of the BP/W or not as i'm sure it's a great set up with lots of really nice advantages, this statement here bothers me.

For the record, this is the definition of the placebo effect. Anticipating a benefit and then receiving it.

 

[Tortuga68]

I wore a poodle jacket last month for the first time in years, doing some skills demonstrations with a DM candidate

What a horrible experience! Couldn't wait to get back to my wings

Oh wait I guess I just brainwashed myself into believe that

 

[Sas]

In your opinion, my questions were "claims."

No. They were claims. You claimed certain features of vest BCs. Prove them or retract them.

I have not seen "multitudes of BP&W users who report the very benefits at issues here." I have seen a "fair number" who repeat it a lot. But most leave out the details that InTheDrink included.

You do not dive in an area where BP/Ws are common at all no? This is something you have repeated frequently. So you have no comparison data.

The other SB member / new divers who stayed with their old Vest BC's probably improved in dive proficiency with more dives and reading here as well.

Vest BCs are easy to dive in. I can trim out great in them. But BP/Ws are far more comfortable to me, mainly because of the tank stability but also because I find them more streamlined... and easier to vent.

A competent diver is in control of their trim. A badly trained, overweighted, lazy diver might be "forced" into a more horizontal position so that, "abracadabra" he has better trim and moves through the water easier, without actually having to learn the what and how.

Yes sure. BP/Ws made it far easier for me to achieve trim when I was a new diver. This is not mutually compatible with learning the 'what and how' though.

If one has good trim because of a new piece of gear, they still have good trim, you don't need to have struggled to master an inappropriate piece of gear to be a real diver, diving is about fun. I think people who claim certain bits of gear are 'crutches' are sucking fun out of diving. At recreational level, who the hell cares?

Yes, the diver is now more streamlined in the water, but the BP/W is not necessarily more streamlined than any other BC.

Or it might be. You have no evidence to the contrary.

For a diver with good dive skills, there are many vest BC's that are very streamlined.

Sure, but they might be even more streamlined in a BP/W, who knows, up to individuals to decide on.

 

[hg frogman]

4) That divers feel better after their conversion to a BP/W can come from many reasons, including placebo/self-suggestion. It can also come from a better trim, and it seems to often be the case, especially for divers who use quite a lot of lead.

So that's the full version of what I wrote, Tobin George, and it's not all about brain-washing as you seem to believe. By the way, self-suggestion doesn't need any brain-washing : everybody, me included, is very reluctant to admit that equipment or vacations that costed a lot is crap or even average (no pun to BP/Ws intended here), so there is a cognitive bias with pricey stuff.

I, at least, tried to be factual.

Most new buyers of a decent BP/W setup will have no reason to become bitterly disappointed with it (I know some exceptions, mostly experienced DMs or instructors who have found that they didn't get as much from their BP/W as what was advertised ; but they don't care about Scubaboard). This setup will do the job, most probably, and often will do the job well.

For single-tank diving in tropical/temperate waters, good jacket BCDs would have led to similar results in many cases. But not all models of jacket BCDs on the market are good ones ; they often need to be "trimmed" ; they don't fit large divers as well as BP/Ws do ; they are less "stylish".

On the other hand, the best jacket BCDs (like Scubapro Classic Sport) are homologated in Europe as "life-savers" on the surface, they provide excellent balance underwater in any position, and they are very streamlined.

I understand that marketing/advertising has to be done, yet good BP/Ws have enough genuine assets (eg simplicity, modularity, robustness, adjustability and snug fit, uncluttered torso, fully available lift, comfort on one's back ...) to not insist heavily on more "questionable" (to be polite) ones (eg drag, ease of venting).

The readers of this thread will judge by themselves. Cheers.