SSI Class - Failed

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I’m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn’t cost more.

In professional education courses, you pay to take a class. Lets say you are taking College Algebra. If you fail, the college will charge you to re-take the class. I have a relative that failed that class 4 times in a row and he paid for it each and every time.

I think in SCUBA you are really paying for a rough amount of instructor time. Lets say classroom time two days at 4 hours per day, pool time two sessions of 3 hours, plus two days of diving at 6 hours per day means a class is buying 26 hours of instruction. Lets say the instructor is a nice guy who understands some students take more time, so he pads every session with an extra hour of time which he expects to use half of the time, so he has a maximum of 29 hours, of which he only expects to use 27.5 on average.

In other words, I think it is expected that some students will take up a little extra time and that shouldn’t be charged. However, if a student requires an extra weekend, or an extra day, or an extra trip, they should be charged for that time.

That is how all of my classes have worked—the instructor just charged a reasonable fee for his or her time for later classwork if needed. Fortunately, I’m cheap, so I learned fast enough to not need the extra time J

Now, the instructor sold the same amount of time regardless of what rate he charged. So, Groupon or not, is just like having a big class or not. If the instructor has 2 students, he sold them the same amount of time as if he had 4 students, even though he’s getting less dollars per hour.

And, if the entire class failed, then I would agree, the teacher did a bad job. In those College Algebra courses, the teacher often applied statistical curves, within reason, to understand how the class did. Unfortunately, SCUBA is a different story. If you can’t find X, you probably won’t die, but if you can’t get to the surface again safely, you will…so SCUBA instructors can’t apply a curve the same way.

I guess what an instructor has to do is calculate the proper amount of time that a class takes to learn, then charge appropriately. For example, maybe one instructor is really good and can get the classroom done in 3.5 hours per day, pool sessions done in 2 hours, and the diving is closer to shore and the students are really good so those trips only take 4 hours. Then, there is a new instructor who takes 5 hours per class, 4 hours per pool session, and the first day in the water takes 7 hours. Either they charge different rates, or the newer instructor has to realize that he’ll be putting in more time at the same class rate.

It is also important for teachers to get feedback constantly from students and know exactly where the students stand in terms of learning. Waiting until the last day to say the students aren’t ready is unacceptable. The teacher should give every student feedback after every encounter to help them learn their strong and weak points. If anyone failed the written portion after I taught them, I would be very distressed about my own ability to teach! In a small class like that even one failure means a 10% or greater failure rate, which is incredibly high. It means I didn’t see that a student was lost, or I didn’t cover the material well, or that I accepted someone into the class who isn’t ready.

Definitely talk to the shop and consider finishing your class at another shop. However, don’t find a shop that sells certification cards. If you really aren’t ready, then you really aren’t ready. We do want instructors who won’t give cards until someone is ready, but we also want instructors who make people ready in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable amount of money.
 
"I’m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn’t cost more."

Agreed, and to be honest if he told us ahead of time i think most of us would have been more then happy to have taken extra lessons and pay for them especially if he threatened to fail us. I am not sure how excited I am now to take 6 more classes especially at 9am in the morning on a weekend.
 
Something is simply not right when the whole class is not up to snuff.

The instructor should have repeated the skills in the pool until they were mastered, not waited until the end to tell them they can't go to OW.

This is complete and total BS and I cannot believe the instructor is attempting to get away with this.
 
When the shops/instructors charge X amount to get certified, the buyer should be able to expect certification for their money....no extras. When they sell certification at X per hour with a realistic but not guaranteed estimate the extra hour charges are acceptable. This falls onto the shop/instructor....not the buyer.

I do agree that first scenario should be treated by both paries as "within reason".


I’m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn’t cost more.

~<snip>~

If you really aren&#8217;t ready, then you really aren&#8217;t ready. We do want instructors who won&#8217;t give cards until someone is ready, but we also want instructors who make people ready in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable amount of money.
 
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Hi jstein. I am an SSI instructor and over the years I've had some folks that just did not fit well with SCUBA diving; never an entire class though. It is the instructor's prerogative to decide who can go to the open water portion of the training. I will tell you this though: None of my students would EVER get all the way to the last day and final get notified that they are not ready. They wouldn't even be in water over their head in the pool if they are not ready for that. Training is a progressive thing and as a student you should know your progress along the way. My suggestions: ask the instructor one on one exactly what skills he believes you are deficient. All the others should as well. If you feel that you did not receive proper training, it is time for a discussion with the shop manager first, before going up the chain to SSI corp.
 
Although I do not agree with how the diveshop handled this.

I do see what happened, THEY fell for the groupon deal.
A 50% discount for the customer, but the shop only gets 25% of that amount. So on a $400 course they will get only $100 - tax
My guess is that they fell for the fast talk of the groupon sales person, and did not see what they where realy getting into.
I know, I fell into the same trap, luckely we only entered for an intro dive.

My advice to new divers and diveshops would be
STAY WELL AWAY FROM GROUPON and the likes.

IF the diveshop reads this, take your loss and try to make the best of it.
Do NOT take this down on your customers, but try to make a sale. :D
 
If you feel that you did not receive proper training, it is time for a discussion with the shop manager first, before going up the chain to SSI corp.
Unfortunately, he has already said that the instructor is also the shop owner.
 
So you paid $139, they told all seven to take it again at additional cost and they didn't want your $180 for open water dives?

This is really odd. If it was one or two people I'd say you have an instructor who cares about your safety. For 7, something is really wrong with either his teaching techniques or his business morals.

If it was me, I'd look into doing an open water referral either on vacation or with another dive shop. If they accept you and you get certified, then you got you $139 worth. If they evaluate you and really do say you aren't ready for open water then the instructor didn't do his job and I'd protest the $139 charge.

Either way, this LDS has ruined his cred with 7 new divers who will talk to countless other divers. How an LDS can be that short sighted is beyond me.

How can you get a referral when the instructor says your not ready??

---------- Post added ----------

I&#8217;m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn&#8217;t cost more.

In professional education courses, you pay to take a class. Lets say you are taking College Algebra. If you fail, the college will charge you to re-take the class. I have a relative that failed that class 4 times in a row and he paid for it each and every time.

I think in SCUBA you are really paying for a rough amount of instructor time. Lets say classroom time two days at 4 hours per day, pool time two sessions of 3 hours, plus two days of diving at 6 hours per day means a class is buying 26 hours of instruction. Lets say the instructor is a nice guy who understands some students take more time, so he pads every session with an extra hour of time which he expects to use half of the time, so he has a maximum of 29 hours, of which he only expects to use 27.5 on average.

In other words, I think it is expected that some students will take up a little extra time and that shouldn&#8217;t be charged. However, if a student requires an extra weekend, or an extra day, or an extra trip, they should be charged for that time.

That is how all of my classes have worked&#8212;the instructor just charged a reasonable fee for his or her time for later classwork if needed. Fortunately, I&#8217;m cheap, so I learned fast enough to not need the extra time J

Now, the instructor sold the same amount of time regardless of what rate he charged. So, Groupon or not, is just like having a big class or not. If the instructor has 2 students, he sold them the same amount of time as if he had 4 students, even though he&#8217;s getting less dollars per hour.

And, if the entire class failed, then I would agree, the teacher did a bad job. In those College Algebra courses, the teacher often applied statistical curves, within reason, to understand how the class did. Unfortunately, SCUBA is a different story. If you can&#8217;t find X, you probably won&#8217;t die, but if you can&#8217;t get to the surface again safely, you will&#8230;so SCUBA instructors can&#8217;t apply a curve the same way.

I guess what an instructor has to do is calculate the proper amount of time that a class takes to learn, then charge appropriately. For example, maybe one instructor is really good and can get the classroom done in 3.5 hours per day, pool sessions done in 2 hours, and the diving is closer to shore and the students are really good so those trips only take 4 hours. Then, there is a new instructor who takes 5 hours per class, 4 hours per pool session, and the first day in the water takes 7 hours. Either they charge different rates, or the newer instructor has to realize that he&#8217;ll be putting in more time at the same class rate.

It is also important for teachers to get feedback constantly from students and know exactly where the students stand in terms of learning. Waiting until the last day to say the students aren&#8217;t ready is unacceptable. The teacher should give every student feedback after every encounter to help them learn their strong and weak points. If anyone failed the written portion after I taught them, I would be very distressed about my own ability to teach! In a small class like that even one failure means a 10% or greater failure rate, which is incredibly high. It means I didn&#8217;t see that a student was lost, or I didn&#8217;t cover the material well, or that I accepted someone into the class who isn&#8217;t ready.

Definitely talk to the shop and consider finishing your class at another shop. However, don&#8217;t find a shop that sells certification cards. If you really aren&#8217;t ready, then you really aren&#8217;t ready. We do want instructors who won&#8217;t give cards until someone is ready, but we also want instructors who make people ready in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable amount of money.

Colleges and University's are not looking for repeat customers, Dive shop owners are!!
 
I&#8217;m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn&#8217;t cost more.

In professional education courses, you pay to take a class. Lets say you are taking College Algebra. If you fail, the college will charge you to re-take the class. I have a relative that failed that class 4 times in a row and he paid for it each and every time........

Actually, if you find you are failing Algebra or whatever, the instructor is available during office hours for a little extra help at no charge. Most colleges also have math labs or free tutoring available in addition to paid tutoring. Students are generally given plenty of feedback early on, so failure is not a surprise at the end of the semester.
 
Actually no they did not. They paid to get certified so they did in fact get screwed.

Instruction is paid for, certification is earned. They did NOT pay for a certification. The cert is free when you learn what is instructed.

With that said, I think the instructor is ripping them off. Never heard of all 7 people failing a class at once. And if they did, the instructor doesn't know how to instruct, and the money should be refunded.

---------- Post added ----------

I’m not sure why we have an expectation in SCUBA that extra class time shouldn’t cost more.

I agree with you. The tech instructors I know charge X amount for X amount of days. If you go over those days, you can expect to pay $150 -200 more per day.
 
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