AOW, but I don't think I'm any good- how to improve?

[wspalding]

My dad isn't opposed to it, he's just... quiet, and as un-assertive as I am, so if the guide says something, he doesn't protest. Also, he's forgetful.
As for the guide, he doesn't decide on tips, and he isn't a local. He's an Caucasian guy, who works as a guide in order to be able to dive for free. He is very unpleasant in the way he looks down on the locals, making fun of them, saying locals (and women) lack money and time management and rational thinking, treats them like they are simple minded yet get them to do everything for him.
Last few dives were just as bad/worse. Though at least now we do pre-dive checks and signal OK before descending.

First dive went well, though my dad didn't check his tank and it was loose and had to be put back underwater. Stayed until 30 bar, but I didn't mind so much because we spent the last 20 bar at 3m deep, in a 4m deep area, and were just under the boat.

Next dive, though, the guide said we would be going along a 30m deep wall, but would stay halfway down, around 15 to 20 m. Then he asked me and two other guys that were there this time (my dad didn't come again) if we were ok spending a minute or two at the plateau. I assumed it would be along the wall, so not more than 30m (Now I know I shouldn't assume anything). At 30m, I realised the plateau was actually at 40m, and by then, I couldn't remember if AOW limits were 30 or 40m, and if recreational diving limits were 40 or 50m. And I wasn't going to leave the group half-way and go off alone. So, I guess now I've been to 40m...
On the way back up, we passed in front of a cave/cavern, and the guide went in (about 5m in?) I stayed out, and after hesitating, one of the two guys followed him in, the other waited outside.

And then the main reason I'm angry all over again. Today we went diving again, the plan was to go down a slope to 20-25m, and then move up, and spend most of the dive in a 10-5m deep area.
By the time we start moving up from 27m (34min into the dive), my computer was signaling to do a decompression stop (3min at 12m). My dad didn't even look at his computer, so he didn't know.
We were going up a slope, so we stayed 3m between 13 and 11m. And then we spent 30min in a 6-7m deep area.
What makes me sooo angry, was that when I told the guide, he said it was normal, whenever he did this dive, he always had to do a decompression stop (2min at 12m, for his computer). So in that case, why did he not tell us first?!?! So that we could choose not to go there? Isn't a decompression stop something important that should at least be mentioned during the plan?
And then he went on for a long speech about how PADI are silly and alarmist about decompression stops, and so long as you keep breathing, leave before 0 bar, ascend slowly enough and obey your computer, then everything is just fine and safer than crossing a road in the city.

So my first 40m and decompression dive, and both were unplanned (or rather, planned but not mentioned in the briefing) As so as I got over the first issue (pre-dive check, sticking with a buddy (or at least staying with the guide, I don't know if I can call him a buddy >< ), bars of air left, ect.) More things come up. I'm kicking myself for not even thinking that these could be issues- unplanned deco and depth are now added to the list of potential issues I need to keep track of, as well as my dad's air and equipment and buyonacy, and all the basics...
At least I'm learning -_- My dad's not the only one getting complacent, I hadn't even thought decompression would be an issue, I'd never even been in a situation where it was close to being an issue before. I should have realized I was close to needing one, and moved up and told my dad to do so too.
So, pre-dive checks, staying with my buddy, air left before ascending, depth and being CLEAR during the briefing despite language used, not going into overhead environments, decompression stops, my own situational awareness, checking on my buddy's air/computer >< his buoyancy, NOT trusting a guide/DM/instructor despite their insistence, NOT trusting equipment that was prepared for us... And I should have known and planned for these BEFORE they happened...
We are going diving again tomorrow (and I'm already going over my concerns with my dad), I wonder what other issues might come up -_-

I'm a little speechless regarding the cavalier attitude of your dive guide towards basic dive safety, and I'm happy to see that you are trusting your training and not just blindly going along. I'm not sure your dad should be diving as he's an accident waiting to happen. I wish I had some advice to give you so that the rest of your vacation could be a better experience. Can you discuss diving with a different dive shop with your dad and avoid the resort diving? There has to be better options than what you are dealing with.

 

[TSandM]

The resort where you are staying must have a manager . . . Go talk to him. Tell him what is happening. He needs to know that this guide is violating a number of good practices and putting the resort's divers at risk. Keeping people underwater when they are low on gas is asking for an emergency or an injury; taking relatively novice, open water certified divers into mandatory decompression is also raising the risk of injury significantly.

I am a GUE diver, so "team" is one of the central tenets of my diving philosophy. The exception is when the "teammate" is deliberately engaging in dangerous diving DESPITE having been asked not to do so. Then you don't have a team . . . you have a loose cannon with an anxious follower. You are not obligated to stay with such a person, and although solo ascents are not the safest idea, they may be safer than following someone into a disaster.

But I would talk to the dive manager or resort manager. They may not be aware that this guy is behaving this way; they MAY be able to change his behavior, where you clearly have been unable to do so. In addition, when he briefs a dive, tell him what YOU are willing to do. YOU are not going to leave your father; you are not going to stay in the water below 50 bar; you are not going to go deeper than whatever depth you have decided is safe for you. Set limits, and don't get talked out of them. Your dive, your safety, your life -- resort rules to the contrary, you are not required to risk them to stay with a guide.

 

[divin'dog]

First dive went well, though my dad didn't check his tank and it was loose and had to be put back underwater.

So much for trusting their set up... ALWAYS check your own equipment! When they jump in to help you with set up, just politely reply "Thank you but I want to do my own set up." Smile like you expect them to honor your request.

On the way back up, we passed in front of a cave/cavern, and the guide went in (about 5m in?) I stayed out, and after hesitating, one of the two guys followed him in, the other waited outside.

Pls, after reading what this guide has been doing, DO NOT FOLLOW THIS GUIDE INTO ANY CAVE! You have been absolutely brilliant following your training! Do not let peer pressure force you into an overhead, and tell your dad about the dangers of "trust me, we're only going in a little way".

And then the main reason I'm angry all over again. Today we went diving again, the plan was to go down a slope to 20-25m, and then move up, and spend most of the dive in a 10-5m deep area.
By the time we start moving up from 27m (34min into the dive), my computer was signaling to do a decompression stop (3min at 12m). My dad didn't even look at his computer, so he didn't know.
We were going up a slope, so we stayed 3m between 13 and 11m. And then we spent 30min in a 6-7m deep area.

It sounds like the guide is a danger to you and your dad... At least from what I have read. Pls use caution when "following" him. Do what you have been trained to do. Getting into deco without planning for it is a dangerous practice. Give yourself a generous buffer away from going into deco. You and your guide are not planning for deco dives... Do not go there.

The guide is too sloppy, complacent and over confident... Dangerous practice for a DM. Complacency to me is a warning sign.

What makes me sooo angry, was that when I told the guide, he said it was normal, whenever he did this dive, he always had to do a decompression stop (2min at 12m, for his computer). So in that case, why did he not tell us first?!?! So that we could choose not to go there? Isn't a decompression stop something important that should at least be mentioned during the plan?
And then he went on for a long speech about how PADI are silly and alarmist about decompression stops, and so long as you keep breathing, leave before 0 bar, ascend slowly enough and obey your computer, then everything is just fine and safer than crossing a road in the city.

Divers do get undeserved hits... Do not do a deco dive by following this DM. He should not be taking you on these types of dives!!! Tell him that when you are close to NDL, that you and your dad will stop diving with him and you will safely hover above him or start ascending in order to stay out of deco. End the dive safely with enough gas and time away from deco. If he calls you "names", feel confident that you are doing the right thing.

At least I'm learning -_- My dad's not the only one getting complacent, I hadn't even thought decompression would be an issue, I'd never even been in a situation where it was close to being an issue before. I should have realized I was close to needing one, and moved up and told my dad to do so too.

You are learning in a dangerous way... Complacency is a warning sign! Take care of your dad and yourself. This DM should not be trusted at all. Do what you need to do to be safe. This DM likes to push the limits/take chances. He thinks he knows better... He likes being close to dangerous situations that he thinks he can control. Do not follow him when your intuition and training tell you not to!!!!

So, pre-dive checks, staying with my buddy, air left before ascending, depth and being CLEAR during the briefing despite language used, not going into overhead environments, decompression stops, my own situational awareness, checking on my buddy's air/computer >< his buoyancy, NOT trusting a guide/DM/instructor despite their insistence, NOT trusting equipment that was prepared for us... And I should have known and planned for these BEFORE they happened...
We are going diving again tomorrow (and I'm already going over my concerns with my dad), I wonder what other issues might come up -_-

It seems that you will need to ask on each dive whether he intends to take you into deco or a cavern/cave, etc... Ask him so that you can get a heads up on the dive plan he has in mind (even though it may change once he is underwater). Then plan, with your dad, what you will do in certain situations on the dive in order to be safe. Tell your dad to read these posts.

You have been doing great in listening to your intuition and following your training. Keep it up! Be safe. Look after your dad. Do not become complacent. Do not allow yourself to be forced to do something dangerous by this DM or peer pressure. If he belittles you, pay no attention to it.

Good luck. Stay safe. Keep us posted.
dd

 

[Peter69_56]

I agree with storker, you are doing great given your experience. Trust your own instincts. I understand about your dad and sympathise with you. I just wish I could be there to chat with you both face to face to help, unfortunately not, so please please take care.

You are thinking correctly and trying to be responsible, that is good. Your guide is a fool and dangerous. If possible change guides to someone else. Otherwise you and your father need to dive your plan and not this idiots plan.

Rule 1 "Be Safe", and dive another day. Talk as much as you can with your dad and make it very clear to him that this guide is not looking after you both, and taking far too many risks. If its not in his nature to be assertive then you do it for him. You are doing the right thing totally. You care about you and him and clearly the dive guide does not.

If it were me I would have already walked away. If I chose to take risks they have to be my choice and not something imposed upon me. Please take care and do as your instincts dictate and not what this idiot wants you to do.

PS; I would dive with you anytime at all. You are a good diver, and understand risks, training and experience. Whilst you are learning, you are way ahead of many divers who have dived more than you. Be proud of what you have achieved and what you understand. If you ever come to OZ and are down Melbourne way drop me a message and we can go diving in a relaxed and confident manner, and not expose you both to this rubbish. In this way you enjoy the dives much more.

 

[bergersau]

Lisa, I just re read your opening post and must tell you you're completely wrong in that post. Yes I said wrong.


You are a good diver.

You are not highly experienced but you seem to have a great mindset. I have been safety officer for my dive club for a year now and wish all our members were as conscientious as you.

Keep it up and don't trust unsafe guides.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Storker]

You are thinking correctly and trying to be responsible, that is good. Your guide is a fool and dangerous.

You are a good diver.

You are not highly experienced but you seem to have a great mindset.

Quoted for emphasis and truth.

Like bergersau, I'm also the safety officer for my club, and I too have seen that some of the experienced members in my club have a much more cavalier attitude towards diving safety than you seem to have. Keep thinking, keep diving, stay with the standards you've learned and stay safe.

 

[Jim-SAR]

I agree, your mindset and conviction towards safety and your training is very admirable. :cool2:

I'm not sure if there are other dive operators where you're at, but if so, I would switch. As said before, you should talk to the manager of the resort, especially if the manager thinks this operator is top notch. I'll make a suggestion that you contact the DM/Guide's certifying agency, and let them know of his behavior and attitude towrds safety. You may have to file a formal complaint giving specific details of your experiences. This operator needs to be given a reality check.

Name names/location so that we know who NOT to go through.

You've been trained well, and it's proven by your actions. Be proud of that!

 

[WhiteSands]

I feel a bit strange reading this actually. Could be just a big misunderstanding due to cultural differences and expectations.

Hi!
All our gear was set up for us ahead of time. My dad didn't check his stuff(pre-dive check) and I had to insist several times.
It makes me uncomfortable that we haven't even set up anything by ourselves.
The guide/manager has the boat staff to do EVERYTHING for us (and treats them like they're nothing, and makes fun of them). If I try to put on my fin by myself, they'll try to put the other one on for me at the same time -_- If I so much as try to check a strap, there's already two hands in the way, I don't even know how they do it... This guide make me so uncomfortable. We don't have a choice, because we are the only guests at the resort at the moment, and he's the only guide.

I'm surprised you feel uncomfortable that they were trying to help. It's their idea of providing good service. Yes, they do this in the Phillipines, and also in the Maldives I'm told, as well as all the more upmarket LOBs in places like Palau, Galapagos, Indonesia, etc.

Many of the guests are thankful for this actually. I find it easier to put on my own fins, so I just tell them politely that I find it easier to do it myself, and they oblige.

Some of us, especially guys, have big egos and don't want to be seen as "needy divers" and may feel that others might look at us funny if we accept help, but I'm on holiday and have clocked enough dives to not bother what others think. If I think it's easier for me that someone puts on my fins for me, I let them. We're both happy.

I have often dived off small speedboats in Malaysia and had to change my tanks on these small boats while they were rocking heavily on the sea packed with other divers. I like having my gear setup for me while on holiday. It 's relaxing. I have less things to be stressed about.

But I'll always check it myself after they're done.

It's done as a form of service, not sure why its taken negatively. If you prefer setting up your own gear, you can tell them and they will oblige.

First dive today on a boat, guide tells us we can enter however we want to (positive or negative) but he prefers negative. Also tells us to hold on to corals and rocks if we want to get a look at anything. My dad goes ahead, no pre dive check, no talk of safety stops (and saying clearly he has forgotten how his computer works and will just follow the guide). They both descend without me. I almost catch up with them, my dad has mask problems, they both ascend without me, guide sees me and tells me to stay at the bottom, I ascend with them anyways. We descend again.

I'd rather not hold on to anything, but perhaps he was again trying to help, knowing that you're a new diver, and afraid that you might struggle and thrash the reef, holding on to rocks or hard corals with fingers isn't going to do much harm.

During the dive, we had some problems with the current. Also, the guide rarely turned around to look at us, just did his own thing. This would be fine with me if it hadn't been so clear that we had to follow him. My dad forgot to check his gas, I was the one who told him to when he had 100bar left.

Well its nice if the guide checked, but that's not really his job. The job of a guide around these parts is to find critters for you to see or take pictures of, and bring you to the interesting places like swim throughs. If you are already certified, you are supposed to check your own gas.

Second dive my dad doesn't feel well so he doesn't come. I get my gear on, they tell me it's ok, I check anyways, the air valve is closed. So much for "trust me" and negative entries. I also shouldn't have assumed that the guide was a buddy, he almost never turned around to check on me. I tried to signal when I had 100 bar left, and by the time I managed, I had 80bar left. He had misjudged the current, so instead of doing a drift dive as planned, we just fought the current all the way >< Signaled again when I had 50bar, then 30 bar. He said OK both times. By the time we started ascending, I had 20 bar left. We weren't very deep, but I'd never met anyone else who was ok with deliberately staying under 30bar. He later said that anything above 0bar was OK...

You didn't say how deep you were? 3m? 5m? or 10m?
Could make a big difference in how this situation is judged.

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2014 at 09:40 AM ----------

Next dive, though, the guide said we would be going along a 30m deep wall, but would stay halfway down, around 15 to 20 m. Then he asked me and two other guys that were there this time (my dad didn't come again) if we were ok spending a minute or two at the plateau. I assumed it would be along the wall, so not more than 30m (Now I know I shouldn't assume anything). At 30m, I realised the plateau was actually at 40m, and by then, I couldn't remember if AOW limits were 30 or 40m, and if recreational diving limits were 40 or 50m. And I wasn't going to leave the group half-way and go off alone. So, I guess now I've been to 40m...
On the way back up, we passed in front of a cave/cavern, and the guide went in (about 5m in?) I stayed out, and after hesitating, one of the two guys followed him in, the other waited outside.

Is this a swim-through? Or a cave?

And then the main reason I'm angry all over again. Today we went diving again, the plan was to go down a slope to 20-25m, and then move up, and spend most of the dive in a 10-5m deep area.
By the time we start moving up from 27m (34min into the dive), my computer was signaling to do a decompression stop (3min at 12m). My dad didn't even look at his computer, so he didn't know.
We were going up a slope, so we stayed 3m between 13 and 11m. And then we spent 30min in a 6-7m deep area.
What makes me sooo angry, was that when I told the guide, he said it was normal, whenever he did this dive, he always had to do a decompression stop (2min at 12m, for his computer). So in that case, why did he not tell us first?!?! So that we could choose not to go there? Isn't a decompression stop something important that should at least be mentioned during the plan?
And then he went on for a long speech about how PADI are silly and alarmist about decompression stops, and so long as you keep breathing, leave before 0 bar, ascend slowly enough and obey your computer, then everything is just fine and safer than crossing a road in the city.

Just wondering, does your computer allow the programming of deep safety stops? I know the Cressi Leonardo does. Not to doubt you but the profile you mentioned sounds like a deep safety stop at 1/2 the maximum depth of the dive. A safety stop is different from a decompression stop, and not all computers have deep safety stops.

As long as NDL wasn't violated, there will not be any decompression stops.

 

[Edward3c]

...
I'd rather not hold on to anything, but perhaps he was again trying to help, knowing that you're a new diver, and afraid that you might struggle and thrash the reef, holding on to rocks or hard corals with fingers isn't going to do much harm.

quite a few things in this post I don't agree with, but this I can't leave. By holding onto hard corol you can damage the protective membrane layer and allow in parasites.

 

[Storker]

I feel a bit strange reading this actually. Could be due to cultural differences and expectations.

I'm surprised you feel uncomfortable that they were trying to help. It's their idea of providing good service.

I'm surprised you willingly let someone else set up your gear and just accept it as finished. Setting up my own gear myself my idea of making sure it's all set up correctly, since I'm the one whose life depends on it working properly.

I find it easier to put on my own fins, so I just tell them politely that I find it easier to do it myself, and they oblige.

I find it safer to set up my gear myself, so I just tell them politely that I prefer to do it myself, and they oblige.

Some of us, especially guys, have big egos and don't want to be seen as "needy divers" and may feel that others might look at us funny if we accept help

Some of us, guys and gals alike, prefer to have full control of our gear, and to make sure that even in an unfamiliar place, perhaps with unfamiliar rental gear, we are able to handle ourselves in case of a situation. I sincerely doubt that machismo is the reason one of my clubmates, a petite woman at least 50 years old, consequently declines any assistance in setting up gear, donning gear and making ready for the drop. OTOH, I believe her when she says that it's to make sure everything works, everything is in place and that she's able to handle herself and the gear in case of a situation.

If I think it's easier for me that someone puts on my fins for me, I let them. We're both happy.

If I feel safer by having full control of my gear, how it's set up and how it works, I won't let anyone else do it for me. I'm happy, and if someone should feel offended, I could hardly care less. It's my life at stake, not theirs.

I like having my gear setup for me while on holiday. It 's relaxing. I have less things to be stressed about.

I like setting up my gear myself. It feels safer. It's part of my pre-dive routine, like the pre-dive gear check and the buddy check. I have less things to be stressed about.

perhaps he was again trying to help, knowing that you're a new diver, and afraid that you might struggle and thrash the reef, holding on to rocks or hard corals with fingers isn't going to do much harm.

The OP says she has 50-99 logged dives. Opinions may differ, but that's not a "new diver" in my book. She may not be a "seasoned veteran", but I assume she has enough buoyancy control to not trash around the reef like an OW student on her first OW course dive.

Well its nice if the guide checked, but that's not really his job. The job of a guide around these parts is to find critters for you to see or take pictures of, and bring you to the interesting places like swim throughs. If you are already certified, you are supposed to check your own gas.

She did. The problem was, the guide was unavailable for contact when she reached 100 bar. If I'm diving with a guide that person had better be attentive enough to receive my signals about remaining gas, and modify the dive accordingly.

You didn't say how deep you were? 3m? 5m? or 10m?
Could make a big difference in how this situation is judged.

Not much. The only place and situation I allow for significantly less than 50 bar in my tank, is during the safety stop at 3-5 m depth. The OP doesn't specify what size tank she was diving, but assuming a 15L 200 bar tank, she should definitely be done with her safety stop and head for the surface at a pressure somewhere between 30 and 50 bar, per min gas/rock bottom calculations.

Is this a swim-through? Or a cave?

Does it matter? It was overhead. The OP was taught not to enter overheads, and she followed that learning because it's only her decision what she will and won't do underwater. If your buddy, or your clients, refuses to participate, you don't pressure them into doing it. That only makes for an insecure diver, and an insecure diver is an unsafe diver.