AOW, but I don't think I'm any good- how to improve?

[BabyDuck]

another thought, since you're going to university soon... in the us, you can take scuba as a physical education course. does your (soon to be) university have a scuba course or a scuba club? that would be a great resource for knowledge and skills, plus chaperoned trips.

time will fix the unfixable parts of this puzzle. soon you won't need your father's leadership/permission to do things you want to do, though now you are in his sphere. work the parts you can, and let time take care of the others, and in a couple of years you'll be able to make more of your own decisions and will probably look forward to a holiday diving with your daddy.

 

[tracydr]

Thanks for the replies!
Having my dad as a buddy is a problem for me. He has bad trim and buoyancy, is 67, can't keep up in a current or thermocline/cold water, and uses so much air. He finishes with at least 50 bar less than me (And I'm typically all over the place/twisting around/a few meters deeper than him/taking photos/swimming back and forth to check with him). The DM typically lets him surface alone with the smb, half-way through the dive when he's low on air, or everyone's dive would be cut short. I doubt he would take the GUE course even if he wanted to. The swimming 15m underwater/275m is easy for me, I don't know about him.

My main problem with trim and rental gear is knee length wetsuit+weight belt+those really awkward and heavy rubber fins that don't fit. I used to do a lot of swimming, so I manage to stay kind of horizontal with posture and some effort (at least, I think I do, but of course, I can't see myself) but it's tiring and distracting. I feel like I'm always fighting against the position I'd fall in if I were motionless.

Becaue I swim a lot, my dad joked that I look more at ease underwater than on land, but well, that's relative, and I don't have any actual objective feedback. I've been teaching myself the kicks I saw on GUE youtube video, but I have no idea if I'm doing it right.

The GUE course sounds great! I wish.... But the gear looks expensive :/ Other than the price, I'd love to. I wonder if my parents would pay, or if I have to wait to be done with college :/ (Does anyone know about the ffessem? I've heard... lots of conflicted opinions)
And I'm nowhere near water Which is sad because I love it.
And also, in the meantime, is there any website when I can learn about dive planning? I'm concerned that without the dive computer/DM, I'd be lost :/

Where do you live? GUE is often taught so that you can dive springs and cave systems. Do you live near any freshwater springs or lakes? France is famous for its caves.

 

[DuboisP]

DuboisP- I'm in Ile de France, so fairly far from the sea, and may be moving even further for school. I'll consider it, though :s I want to go diving because I love the sea, and nature. I'm not eager to learn the tile patterns in a swimming pool by heart again, especially if I end up with very few chances to dive anywhere else. I suppose it's also cheaper? I'm also not sure about every week- I'd be willing to give up my holidays, but I'm starting post-secondary school, and I'm not sure about time).

Ile de France is pretty large.
In Paris, non-profit organizations are generally full by september.
Babyduck is right, some universities have scuba as a physical education course. In fact, I began diving as a option

We can't really compare prices.
In a commercial, you paid for one or 2 weeks to train for a certification
In a non-profit, you paid for the year, but you must add travels at the sea, on saturday/sunday or during school holidays.

feel free to PM me a more precise location, i can provide you some addresses.
you can also open a thread on the site Plongeur.com, la passion de la plongée sous-marine , i have the same alias.

 

[neonstingray]

A far better plan would be to seek out a shop (or better yet club) that comprehensively teaches and practices the type of diving she will most likely and often do, take a refresher of the basics, and then to do straight forward, shallow dives without the camera to work on the basic skills.

This. I will always contend that spending time with the shop that does the diving you wish to do is a better start than trying to figure out who puts up the most convincing argument for their favorite course.

 

[FinnMom]

...And there's the whole budget for diving problem...

I don't know what is normal for club diving in France, but here the life blood of any club is encouraging new members to dive actively and locally. With that in mind most clubs own several sets of gear for use in training new divers, and also for renting to members who don't have their own gear, esp. younger people who naturally have less income.

For example, our club officially charges 10 euros per rental (2-3 days can be the same rental) of a full set (regs/[filled] tank/vest), but a young person using the set all summer would get charged 40-50 euros for the entire summer/year (plus airfills @2 euros per). Little by little we would expect you to start gathering your own gear, but little by little any enthusiastic diver would do so anyway. Gear doesn't need to be new, either. In a club you may also be able to try someone's old gear a good month or more before buying.

 

[lisa1234]

Hi!
I'm back It turns out seriously diving won't be in the picture for me for the next 4 years or so, or until I get my degree (or maybe 7/8 depending on my studies...)
I'm here because I went on yet another holiday dive (in Dumagete, in the Philippines) with my dad, and now I'm sooo angry. And maybe posting here won't be much of a help, but I want to rant, I'm very sorry!

All our gear was set up for us ahead of time. My dad didn't check his stuff(pre-dive check) and I had to insist several times.
It makes me uncomfortable that we haven't even set up anything by ourselves.
The guide/manager has the boat staff to do EVERYTHING for us (and treats them like they're nothing, and makes fun of them). If I try to put on my fin by myself, they'll try to put the other one on for me at the same time -_- If I so much as try to check a strap, there's already two hands in the way, I don't even know how they do it... This guide make me so uncomfortable. We don't have a choice, because we are the only guests at the resort at the moment, and he's the only guide.

First dive today on a boat, guide tells us we can enter however we want to (positive or negative) but he prefers negative. Also tells us to hold on to corals and rocks if we want to get a look at anything. My dad goes ahead, no pre dive check, no talk of safety stops (and saying clearly he has forgotten how his computer works and will just follow the guide). They both descend without me. I almost catch up with them, my dad has mask problems, they both ascend without me, guide sees me and tells me to stay at the bottom, I ascend with them anyways. We descend again.
During the dive, we had some problems with the current. Also, the guide rarely turned around to look at us, just did his own thing. This would be fine with me if it hadn't been so clear that we had to follow him. My dad forgot to check his gas, I was the one who told him to when he had 100bar left.
Also, the guide was... I don't know how to say thing... He says he perfected his trim/buoyancy because he had his own gear, but he was lying and kneeling on the sand, grabbing on to rocks, poking things with his stick to make them move, and managed to kick corals while doing frog kick, and generally kicking something every 3 minutes.
On a positive note, my dad's buoyancy is slightly better, though his trim is not and we had quite a trail of clouds behind us...
Then my dad had 30 bar left, and I had 70, so the guide told me to stay there (9m deep), while he went up with my dad, and that he would join me again to continue diving. I refused, he insisted, I refuse again and ascend with them. Guide tells me I must not like diving, and insinuates that I am a chicken for sticking with the buddy system.

Second dive my dad doesn't feel well so he doesn't come. I get my gear on, they tell me it's ok, I check anyways, the air valve is closed. So much for "trust me" and negative entries. I also shouldn't have assumed that the guide was a buddy, he almost never turned around to check on me. I tried to signal when I had 100 bar left, and by the time I managed, I had 80bar left. He had misjudged the current, so instead of doing a drift dive as planned, we just fought the current all the way >< Signaled again when I had 50bar, then 30 bar. He said OK both times. By the time we started ascending, I had 20 bar left. We weren't very deep, but I'd never met anyone else who was ok with deliberately staying under 30bar. He later said that anything above 0bar was OK...

We have a few more dives here. I feel like my dad is getting more and more complacent, and he keeps saying he'll just trust the guide. I'm lost. I'm not used to being the one bothering everyone else with safety concerns. I've insisted on pre-dive checks and positive entries (so that we actually descend together). I also want to always tell the guide I have 10bar less than I actually have, but I don't know it that's a good idea.

I'm so sorry for this long text. I don't know where else to put this. I wish that my only occasions for diving didn't have to be like this! ><

 

[FinnMom]

good job on sticking to your standards! The helpers can be a nuisance but usually they are just doing anything they can think of to please you and get a good tip. Be friendly and let them know what does please you. If you are nasty no one really cares what a Dink wants so stick to the more flirs with honey approach. Friendly but firm, don't let the boneheads wear down yor resolve. you should continue check everything before you go in. you don't need to debate 1 word with them or your dad on whether you need to or why you shouldn't: it's your gear and this is how you plan to do things. You will be less frustrated and flustered if you don't debate. besides, you would clearly be talking to people who have no intension of listening, that's just a waste on not just time but peace of mind.

Wow, the guide doesn't seem to have given much thought as to whether he should keep the customers happy if he wants any decent tips. Teasing you about not wanting to wait or continue diving is a bit above and beyond normal jackass behavior, makes me wonder if he just doesn't like women divers. Possibly his professional pride is insulted by your insisting on higher standards. It would be a big help if the guy making the tip decisions were more interested in your happiness.

If you think it helps, maybe you should talk to your dad. you like having me dive with you and be on a trip like this? If so I gotta have a diving environment that I can relax and enjoy. I need to be allowed my safety standards, its no fun diving when I can't do it in a peaceful assured state of mind. I will not be forced to exhaist myself swiming after a guide that is apparently traing to swim the English channel. I will always be at least starting my safety stop when I am down to 50 bar. Etc.

 

[Peter69_56]

Lisa,

You should be proud of the fact that you are doing as you were trained. Your instincts are telling you the right thing. I am disappointed that your dad is taking it far too easy and trusting of the guides. You should trust only one person and that's yourself. Then after looking after yourself you look after your buddy. Then if its safe, look after others, all in that order.

Your dad might think that being buddies doesn't matter as its all safe. Well if you were going to try out for the Navy Seals, they reinforce 2 things strongly, teamwork, and you DO NOT do anything without your buddy EVER! If you constantly don't follow this rule, you fail the course forever. Now these guys are as tough as anything and can do things us mear mortals could never do, but they follow the rules (above). Why? because you need to so as to ensure you survive.

Your method of pre dive checks is so valid. I am the same as you and do pre dive on every occasion and do the same routine every time. Only once I didn't do it. My gear was set up by helpers and I couldn't get down to it and check it all before hand. Then there was a mad rush to get in the water, with me being last. I geared up and jumped in, guess what, no inflater hose attached and not only that it was caught inside my BCD. So luckily I was weighted well and swam back up and got assistance to fix the issue. Another option was to go to the bottom (18m) and resolve it, however just think of the consequences if I were badly overweighted and in blue water with no bottom in sight!


So part of my routine is; check inflater inflates BCD, check reg and octo by breathing them and "watching gauge pressure", so I see air is on and not just pressurised and off.


In relation to minimum air you already know what you should ascend with. I would make a point of discussing this with both my buddy and any guide. If they don't like it, explain that you are coming up at X BAR, if they argue then you should be firm, or unfortunately find another buddy. In the case of your dad, perhaps a heart to heart alone and explain why. If he tries to brush it off, ask him if he cares about you? Once he gets over the "offended" feeling explain to him you do this because you care about you both, and want to dive often and for many years, and not be a statistic. And you do this for your dad because you love him.

Also if you think that the guide is not listening, explain what you need and if they still don't listen, suggest your tipping method is dependant on getting the service you desire, and not what they want. I usually start off tactfully, but if necessary I become very blunt. I want to enjoy the diving, and have fun however also survive for another dive.

Your buddy is your lifeline. Just recently I was doing a 21m deco stop and being bashed about by the strong current and swell. I felt a tap on my shoulder from my buddy, he pointed down and I saw my weight belt disappearing into the gloom. I didn't feel it go, so it was very appropriate that he tell me as had I let go or been bumped off the down line and drifted in the current I may well have had no chance to complete my deco obligation and shot to the surface with nasty consequences. Knowing I was buoyant meant I had to take care and use the down line until the surface. I watch him and he watches me, we protect each other. Your dad needs to realise that he is doing neither you or him any favours in not being a good buddy.

In relation to minimum gas reserves, again you are doing the right thing. You don't know if your gauge is accurate? Is 20 BAR really 20 BAR or 3 BAR? Do you know if you will get caught in a down current? or perhaps see your buddy in difficulty and sinking etc. The reserve is there for a reason, not just as a nanny state amount of gas. Any idiot can dive and run their gas down to 10 BAR, smart people survive, idiots die.

Often you will find third world country guides do not have a good appreciation of the tables and risk, thus they take extreme risk unknowingly. If you follow them you are taking on this risk, and just because they can get away with it, you might not, or your father. Different physical condition etc can make the difference, hence the reason for safety margins.

You are doing everything right, you are a good buddy in trying to be responsible. Keep it up and be firmer with your father and the dive guides. Your dad needs to be a bit more serious about it all. If I were there I would try and tactfully discuss it with him so as not to get him off side, but get him to understand.

Keep trying, you are doing it all right. Perhaps get some dives in with someone more experienced as well.

Most of all, stay safe.

 

[lisa1234]

My dad isn't opposed to it, he's just... quiet, and as un-assertive as I am, so if the guide says something, he doesn't protest. Also, he's forgetful.
As for the guide, he doesn't decide on tips, and he isn't a local. He's an Caucasian guy, who works as a guide in order to be able to dive for free. He is very unpleasant in the way he looks down on the locals, making fun of them, saying locals (and women) lack money and time management and rational thinking, treats them like they are simple minded yet get them to do everything for him.
Last few dives were just as bad/worse. Though at least now we do pre-dive checks and signal OK before descending.

First dive went well, though my dad didn't check his tank and it was loose and had to be put back underwater. Stayed until 30 bar, but I didn't mind so much because we spent the last 20 bar at 3m deep, in a 4m deep area, and were just under the boat.

Next dive, though, the guide said we would be going along a 30m deep wall, but would stay halfway down, around 15 to 20 m. Then he asked me and two other guys that were there this time (my dad didn't come again) if we were ok spending a minute or two at the plateau. I assumed it would be along the wall, so not more than 30m (Now I know I shouldn't assume anything). At 30m, I realised the plateau was actually at 40m, and by then, I couldn't remember if AOW limits were 30 or 40m, and if recreational diving limits were 40 or 50m. And I wasn't going to leave the group half-way and go off alone. So, I guess now I've been to 40m...
On the way back up, we passed in front of a cave/cavern, and the guide went in (about 5m in?) I stayed out, and after hesitating, one of the two guys followed him in, the other waited outside.

And then the main reason I'm angry all over again. Today we went diving again, the plan was to go down a slope to 20-25m, and then move up, and spend most of the dive in a 10-5m deep area.
By the time we start moving up from 27m (34min into the dive), my computer was signaling to do a decompression stop (3min at 12m). My dad didn't even look at his computer, so he didn't know.
We were going up a slope, so we stayed 3m between 13 and 11m. And then we spent 30min in a 6-7m deep area.
What makes me sooo angry, was that when I told the guide, he said it was normal, whenever he did this dive, he always had to do a decompression stop (2min at 12m, for his computer). So in that case, why did he not tell us first?!?! So that we could choose not to go there? Isn't a decompression stop something important that should at least be mentioned during the plan?
And then he went on for a long speech about how PADI are silly and alarmist about decompression stops, and so long as you keep breathing, leave before 0 bar, ascend slowly enough and obey your computer, then everything is just fine and safer than crossing a road in the city.

So my first 40m and decompression dive, and both were unplanned (or rather, planned but not mentioned in the briefing) As so as I got over the first issue (pre-dive check, sticking with a buddy (or at least staying with the guide, I don't know if I can call him a buddy >< ), bars of air left, ect.) More things come up. I'm kicking myself for not even thinking that these could be issues- unplanned deco and depth are now added to the list of potential issues I need to keep track of, as well as my dad's air and equipment and buyonacy, and all the basics...
At least I'm learning -_- My dad's not the only one getting complacent, I hadn't even thought decompression would be an issue, I'd never even been in a situation where it was close to being an issue before. I should have realized I was close to needing one, and moved up and told my dad to do so too.
So, pre-dive checks, staying with my buddy, air left before ascending, depth and being CLEAR during the briefing despite language used, not going into overhead environments, decompression stops, my own situational awareness, checking on my buddy's air/computer >< his buoyancy, NOT trusting a guide/DM/instructor despite their insistence, NOT trusting equipment that was prepared for us... And I should have known and planned for these BEFORE they happened...
We are going diving again tomorrow (and I'm already going over my concerns with my dad), I wonder what other issues might come up -_-

 

[Storker]

On the way back up, we passed in front of a cave/cavern, and the guide went in (about 5m in?) I stayed out, and after hesitating, one of the two guys followed him in, the other waited outside.

GOOD on you! You were independent enough to not trust the guide, but follow your own standards and decide what YOU wanted to do under water. Great!

(BTW, you might search the board for "trust me" dives. It's generally regarded as a dangerous practice).

By the time we start moving up from 25m (34min into the dive), my computer was signaling to do a decompression stop (3min at 12m). My dad didn't even look at his computer, so he didn't know.
We were going up a slope, so we stayed 3m between 13 and 11m. And then we spent 30min in a 6-7m deep area.
What makes me sooo angry, was that when I told the guide, he said it was normal, whenever he did this dive, he always had to do a decompression stop (2min at 12m, for his computer). So in that case, why did he not tell us first?!?! So that we could choose not to go there? Isn't a decompression stop something important that should at least be mentioned during the plan?
And then he went on for a long speech about how PADI are silly and alarmist about decompression stops, and so long as you keep breathing, leave before 0 bar, ascend slowly enough and obey your computer, then everything is just fine and safer than crossing a road in the city.

Run, don't walk away from that guide. He's dangerous. A dive that entails one or more deco stops should be planned as such, and current standards from any reputable agency demand two independent air sources (typically a double set with an isolation manifold, or, in a pinch, a slung pony of sufficient capacity) with two first stage regulators and two second stage regulators.

You're looking great, girl. You think, and you try to follow standards as they were taught to you. As a beginner, it's difficult to stand against peer pressure from purportedly more experienced divers, but any diver has to remember that you, and you alone, are responsible for your safety, and if you don't feel safe doing something underwater, you should never do it. Keep up the good work, and kick that guide's butt from here to wherever he comes from!