Diving with Pony Bottle on or off?

[JohnN]

I think my point was that, in recreational diving, we are taught never to secure an octo in a way that one cannot immediately donate it ie. no boltsnaps or stuffing it in a pocket. Sidemount and independent double divers often discuss how to secure the reg they are not using in some quick release method. Yet people will suggest turning off ponies - which flies in the face of this paradigm.

That is because the whole idea of charging and turning off a bottle comes from the technical realm and not the recreational realm and is a practice developed under very different circumstances. People are transposing a set of SOP's from one realm to the other without considering the parameters that they were developed in. I have already listed them: that you don't just go to a bottle when you have an acute issue - you isolate and breath backgas, that bottles often contain different gasses, that reg hoses are traced back to source, that bottle contents are verified before breathing.

Auxiliary bottle use in the technical realm has it's own set of paradigms that technical divers would not suggest altering by transposing recreational SOP's. Imagine a rec diver suggesting leaving deco bottles on and just going to them in an OOA event. Tech divers would howl and list the reasons why that violates the paradigm of safety that they function under. Yet those same divers suggest turning pony bottles off in the rec realm without considering the paradigm that those divers function under.

I call BS and provide the challenge.

Here's another question that illustrates the logic error:

In the technical realm most divers use isolation manifold doubles and leave the isolator valve open (other than Akimbo who is the only person I have ever heard advocate progressive isolation). When they have a failure they go through a valve shutdown to isolate that failure. Why don't they just dive with the isolator closed. This would ensure they have a reserve that would not be lost due to accidental freeflow and they should be able to open the isolator during a failure. If you think about it that is what is being suggested to the rec diver. To that diver, the pony is akin to the left side of the doubles rig. It is left open and ready to go to just as the doubles are. Suggesting otherwise is like me suggesting doubles divers close the isolator as a routine SOP during the dive.

I think you're over complicating the problem (at least for me). An increasing number of "recreational" divers dive with a long hose/bungeed secondary configuration. This is 'rec' not 'tech'

My pony is for poo-hits-the-fan events and is not part of my gas plan. It is not a deco bottle and holds only air. I don't count on my dive buddy for gas, and the regulator is charged (sealed diaphragm first stage) to prevent water incursion and unnecessary service. The tank is off so that some sort unplanned free-flow of the pony doesn't degrade my emergency gas.

 

[uncfnp]

I wonder if people who believe having a pony turned off is no big deal would also consider having their extra second stage (octo) secured without a quick release, or in a pocket? I would assume that, if one diver should have enough time to turn on a pony another should have enough time to unclip a fastened second stage.

Charged and off.

As for safety, I know it's off. I drill with it off. It's a small pony and a brief free flow can be significant. One of the down sides to a small pony.

Using the same logic as the prevention of loss of gas due to freeflow, one might even argue that having their octo clipped off securely keeps it where it's supposed to be without accidental displacement. The more secure the attachment, the more reliable the access.

Yes, the secondary is firmly attached to my bungee. And since you brought it up, in SM the long hose is indeed "clipped off" when not in use.

I also wonder how many sidemount divers turn the tank they are not breathing off? I would think this a very safe practice according to pony turned off to prevent accidental freeflow logic. This would be especially relevant when the dive has been turned and the gas in that cylinder is being held in reserve.

Funny how we never hear that being discussed...

That is because it's apples and oranges.

Edit: In fact, it's less than that. There is zero correlation between pony bottles and SM diving.

I think my point was that, in recreational diving, we are taught never to secure an octo in a way that one cannot immediately donate it ie. no boltsnaps or stuffing it in a pocket. Sidemount and independent double divers often discuss how to secure the reg they are not using in some quick release method.

The "quick release method" you may see discussed is for an OOG scenario to facilitate rapid deployment of the regulator to be donated, in my case the long hose. It may be an o-ring or a tie wrap used to secure the Bolt Snap or another commercial product. It is not for routine switches between tanks.

 

[maniago]

My wife and I dive our ponys with bright yellow octos as the reg, mounted in the chest triangle just like OW training teaches - easy for anyone to take if they need to - long hose and the whole pony and reg combo are underwater detachable/donatable if need be. Pony is a 30cu, upside down, back mounted, and always on. Our personal second regs are Air3s.

It works for us.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Interesting - why would you use a long hose? Makes no sense to me - donate the rig and a short hose works... grab the panicked diver by the BC and keep the pony a short hose works.
So why do you use a long hose in OW?

 

[maniago]

Interesting - why would you use a long hose on a pony? Makes no sense to me - donate the rig and a short hose works... grab the panicked diver by the BC and keep the pony a short hose works.
So why do you use a long hose on a pony in OW?

Yeah sorry. My bad. Its the standard octo hose length, which is always longer than the primary hose - and in our case yellow in color. Not a 7' hose ala tech.

 

[DaleC]

The tank is off so that some sort unplanned free-flow of the pony doesn't degrade my emergency gas.

My point is that if gas loss is so problematic why don't sidemount divers turn the tank they aren't using off. If turning a pony on before breathing it is so easy, and if turning it off solves some sort of issue, why wouldn't it also be the case for them? I'll discuss the mythical unknown freeflow below but what about the failures that occur as the result of charging a system. Far more failures occur when turning the tank on that at some point after that.

I don't know where longhose and bungeed backups got into this discussion.

As for safety, I know it's off. I drill with it off. It's a small pony and a brief free flow can be significant. One of the down sides to a small pony.

Yes, the secondary is firmly attached to my bungee. And since you brought it up, in SM the long hose is indeed "clipped off" when not in use.

That is because it's apples and oranges.

Edit: In fact, it's less than that. There is zero correlation between pony bottles and SM diving.

The "quick release method" you may see discussed is for an OOG scenario to facilitate rapid deployment of the regulator to be donated, in my case the long hose. It may be an o-ring or a tie wrap used to secure the Bolt Snap or another commercial product. It is not for routine switches between tanks.

Again, tell me about the time you lost a significant amount of gas from a side slung pony without noticing. Give a real life example.

I bring up how regulators are fastened because it is often discussed in recreational diving, that there should be no impediment to donating gas. Yet here people are suggesting turning their own reserve tank off. That's an impediment. If that sort of impediment is ok then why not a boltsnap secured reg or reg stuck in a pocket. One impediment is pretty much the same as another if you train for it.

All gas is on - all gas is donatable is a paradigm in recreational diving, just like never breath blindly off a slung tank is a paradigm in technical diving. Sure, an individual can make up there own rules for a pony just like a tech diver can casually go to that bottle he always knows contains 50/50 but it isn't a practice to be advocated.

Why do we dive with a pony: So we have an emergency gas source to donate to ourselves in case of a primary failure. Where is it taught in the recreational world to turn off donatable gas? Does the fact that you donate to yourself make it any less immediate?

What real problem does turning the tank off solve, compared to the impediment it presents? And... if it presents no impediment, why don't manifolded doubles divers turn off the isolator? Wouldn't they be subject to the same concerns? Even better, why don't they move the suit whip and shut down the left post. That way they would not lose any freeflow gas from the reg they would go to in case of a primary failure.

Think about it - it's the same thing. The pony reg is what you go to in case of a primary failure. The doubles breathing tech diver turns off his slung tanks because they are not what he/she turns to in case of a primary failure. They turn to the octo and isolate. Where is the doubles divers octo? Under their chin. What condition is it in? Immediately breathable without an intermediary step.

 

[uncfnp]

Again, tell me about the time you lost a significant amount of gas from a side slung pony without noticing. Give a real life example.

Did you you read my reply? It is not an unnoticed leak but a full force free flow that is my concern.

I can't give you an example because I am a capable diver able to analyze my diving needs and make intelligent choices to mitigate my risk.

Now, give me the list of the dive fatalities from a pony bottle that was knowingly dived closed.

I bring up how regulators are fastened because it is often discussed in recreational diving, that there should be no impediment to donating gas. Yet here people are suggesting turning their own reserve tank off. That's an impediment. If that sort of impediment is ok then why not a boltsnap or reg stuck in a pocket.

Why do we dive with a pony: So we have an emergency gas source to donate to ourselves in case of a primary failure. Where is it taught in the recreational world to turn off donatable gas? Does the fact that you donate to yourself make it any less immediate?

What real problem does turning the tank off solve, compared to the impediment it presents? And... if it presents no impediment, why don't manifolded doubles divers turn off the isolator? Wouldn't they be subject to the same concerns? Even better, why don't they move the suit whip and shut down the left post. That way they would not lose any freeflow gas from the reg they would go to in case of a primary failure. Think about it - it's the same thing.


I can tell you why: because they know it solves no real problem. Unknown side slung gas loss due to freeflow is a red herring excuse.

I agree that for you this simple task would pose a significant risk and that you indeed should only dive with the pony valve on. You win.

 

[lowviz]

.... I can tell you why: because they know it solves no real problem. Unknown side slung gas loss due to freeflow is a red herring excuse.

So you believe in absolutes.

Here is part of the dive report from the last ocean dive I was on. The author and the rest of it can be found on the John-Jack's website.

After a quick set, the customers splashed one-by-one into a moderate surface current and, below that, a ripping subsurface current. The only way to reach the anchor line was to pull your way, hand-over-hand, across the Carolina rig. All of this surface turmoil took its toll on the visibility at the bottom, which could be generously described as 3-5 ft and dark. Water temp was 45 degrees, not bad for this time of the year.

Remove your secondary, turn it facing up, and depress the purge. Will you guarantee that it will stop by itself?

There were three immediate threats to serious gas loss in the dive I was on, current depressing the purge, the Carolina line depressing the purge, and bumping against a diver going in the other direction. I had no awareness of my bubbles they were streaming down the length of my body. My pony, stage bottle, travel bottle (whatever) is off. Stays off. I know it is off. It is always off. This is not advice, just what I do and why.

 

[DaleC]

uncfnp. You seriously want a list of dive fatalities that have occurred because of people diving a tank valve closed? I'm too lazy but I think we all know they exist.

But I see you have sunk to sarcasm so I will let this go. I have made my point. I try to argue ideas not personalities.



Low Vis, I'm not sure ripping subsurface current, pulling hand over hand and 3-5' of vis is the typical recreational dive profile. All I know is that I have dived many different conditions, all cold water, all with valve on and have never had a freeflow that I did not notice or could not correct in a side slung tank. And no, I don't think in absolutes but I do have certain ideas about certain SOP's when considered as a whole.

Can individuals do their own thing.. sure. I do my own thing in many ways. But just like the tech diver who only always dives with a certain stage mix so they don't bother to verify, it's a personal choice that would make for a poor general SOP.

 

[lowviz]

... And no, I don't think in absolutes

I was pretty sure that you don't. Overstated for effect.

But, yes. That was on the Rockland County wreck and it is a popular training wreck even at this time of year. We love it when we get good conditions, but generally don't expect them.

but I do have certain ideas about certain SOP's when considered as a whole.

So do I. The problem is that we both consider things from OUR OWN experiences and viewpoints.