Diving with Pony Bottle on or off?

[uncfnp]

uncfnp. You seriously want a list of dive fatalities that have occurred because of people diving a tank valve closed? I'm too lazy but I think we all know they exist.

Yes I seriously do. Remember, it's purposely closed pony valves we are discussing. You seemed to have overlook this part.

But I see you have sunk to sarcasm so I will let this go. I have made my point. I try to argue ideas not personalities.

No personality issues. I believe it's a valid point. We each must decide what is best for our diving circumstances. Clearly an open valve is the best choice for you. I am not trying to convince you otherwise.

 

[DaleC]

I may be guilty of arguing in general terms against peoples personal practices. This is one of those issues, like whether we should have octos when solo diving, that I think deserves a lot of thought as to all the consequences. I like a good debate and respect well thought out rebuttals.

As to the fatality list. I would argue that it is a case of incidents that arise from someone going to a dead reg, not necessarily a pony. I argue that a dead reg doesn't really belong in recreational diving.

 

[DandyDon]

You are doing an excellent job of supporting the position I share. I just have one comment here...

Why do we dive with a pony: So we have an emergency gas source to donate to ourselves in case of a primary failure. Where is it taught in the recreational world to turn off donatable gas? Does the fact that you donate to yourself make it any less immediate?

I carry mine primarily for myself. It's a pain to get vized every year for my vacation trips, pack, haul thru airports, hope that TSA is ok with it, haul to hotels, haul to dive shops a day before dives, etc - but it didn't take me long in recreational diving to see I really couldn't depend on others, whether I know them or not.

Except I have donated it to others more than I have myself. Again: I let others know that it's on and they can grab it, not need to ask, as I will understand. Besides, I am such an air hog that I don't want to share my back gas.

Others can answer the poll however they wish, but I support your postings.

 

[DaleC]

Thanks Don.
I do believe there are some premises that make recreational diving pretty safe. Direct access to the surface, not carrying a gas that will kill you because of MOD and all gas is donatable. If we don't mess with those concepts we avoid a lot of pitfalls that technical training/experience is needed for.

I think most people dive ponies for one main reason, whether they are solo or not, because they want a bailout gas source that isn't attached to another person. But the pony still basically serves the same purpose that an octo from a buddy would - gas in case of primary failure. That being the case, and assuming one is diving recreational profiles, I also believe in all other respects that source should maintain the same parameters.. donatable and immediately accessible. That way, a pony does not create a new paradigm for the recreational divers and fits seamlessly into what is expected in that realm.

 

[lowviz]

... I argue that a dead reg doesn't really belong in recreational diving.

Valid premise.

But it is up to you to donate it, no? Is it really dead upon donation?

 

[DaleC]

In a rec setting I view all my regs as potentially donatable, or rather, take-able by another diver. The pony reg when slung either sits at chest level on the side close enough to the "PADI" triangle to be attractive or is clipped off like an octo so that I assume that an OOA diver might just "go for it" rather than wait for me to donate the reg of my choice.

Further that by the fact that sometimes I am diving a doublehose and using my pony reg as an octo. Some others also remove their octos and use the pony this way. In that case the main donation reg is the pony. I have just never read or heard, in the rec realm, where divers are taught they need to turn on a reg in order to donate it. It's simply outside the paradigm.

You can see the slippery slope develop if ideas are not challenged. A new pony diver is first told to keep the pony valve off. Then they are told they can remove their traditional second reg and use the pony reg as their octo. Then they have a dead reg when they donate.

When people talk about the steps they will take such as donating their octo not their pony, turning the pony on when it is needed etc... they are talking about expected events. If everything unfolds as I predict this is what will happen. I take the stance that an OOA is already an unpredicted event and that reactions may not be what they should be. That's why I believe the configuration should be as one would ordinarily expect so that instinctive behavior will fall in line with performance.

 

[lowviz]

... Further that by the fact that sometimes I am diving a doublehose and using my pony reg as an octo. Some others also remove their octos and use the pony this way. In that case the main donation reg is the pony. I have just never read or heard, in the rec realm, where divers are taught they need to turn on a reg in order to donate it. It's simply outside the paradigm.

In my world, that isn't rec. It is something totally alien to what "any" OW diver has ever seen.

You can see the slippery slope develop if ideas are not challenged. A new pony diver is first told to keep the pony valve off. Then they are told they can remove their traditional second reg and use the pony reg as their octo. Then they have a dead reg when they donate.

I can see that.

But I keep a pony as a pony. Something slung on me that is never to be used. (Absolutes again, "Never" as in it doesn't even figure into rock bottom calcs? )

If you clip your pony as an octo, IMHO, it is no longer a pony. Fine, open it. In fact, you should keep it open. The octo is expected to be fully functional by everyone, including me. The lines are blurred when a pony is put into dual service.

When people talk about the steps they will take such as donating their octo not their pony, turning the pony on when it is needed etc... they are talking about expected events. ...

Being mugged for air is an expected event. The reg in your mouth that is producing bubbles is the only thing that a near panicked diver will see. An out of air diver practiced in out of air procedures may have a clearer head and wider focus. But, if it actually happens in real life, I wouldn't count on it.

Good discussion.

 

[Doc Harry]

Out of curiosity how many breaths can u get befor having run through the volume of air stored between your first and 2nd stage?

How many breaths? It's irrelevant. I don't try to breathe off a valve that's turned off.

But... Before I jump in the water I have a habit of taking three quick breaths off my primary while looking at my SPG. If I forgot to turn on my valve then the needle on the SPG will drop rapidly with each breath. It's a great - but not failsafe - safety check before going head wet.

I wonder if people who believe having a pony turned off is no big deal would also consider having their extra second stage (octo) secured without a quick release, or in a pocket?

You're comparing apples to oranges.

-----

My belief is that if you can't hold your breath for 5 seconds while you're turning on your pony valve then perhaps you should not be underwater in the first place.

 

[DaleC]

Then if you can't hold your breath for 5 seconds while I unclip my octo or retrieve it from a pocket you shouldn't be underwater either. It's a pretty straight forward comparison.

 

[lowviz]

This had been an interesting "consider this" discussion.

As usual, it is only a matter of time before the "you will die / you don't belong here" mavens assert themselves...