Diving with Pony Bottle on or off?
- Thread starter Bigeclipse
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DaleC
Contributor
Argon?
cool_hardware52
Contributor
AfterDark
Contributor
Yeah I was thinking I had a friend that ate a granola bar pre-dive and almost drown, of course it had nothing to do with the granola bar.
DaleC
Contributor
Don't be so sure about that. I once got into a lot of trouble in a granola bar when I suggested CSNY sounded a lot better without Neil. There were yogurt smoothies and bean sprouts a flyin...
Aquavelvet
Contributor
Slung bottle, charged and off. If you can't open the valve on your pony when you need to, you've likely got much bigger problems on your hands.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DaleC
Contributor
I wonder if people who believe having a pony turned off is no big deal would also consider having their extra second stage (octo) secured without a quick release, or in a pocket? I would assume that, if one diver should have enough time to turn on a pony another should have enough time to unclip a fastened second stage.
Using the same logic as the prevention of loss of gas due to freeflow, one might even argue that having their octo clipped off securely keeps it where it's supposed to be without accidental displacement. The more secure the attachment, the more reliable the access.
I also wonder how many sidemount divers turn the tank they are not breathing off? I would think this a very safe practice according to pony turned off to prevent accidental freeflow logic. This would be especially relevant when the dive has been turned and the gas in that cylinder is being held in reserve.
Funny how we never hear that being discussed...
Using the same logic as the prevention of loss of gas due to freeflow, one might even argue that having their octo clipped off securely keeps it where it's supposed to be without accidental displacement. The more secure the attachment, the more reliable the access.
I also wonder how many sidemount divers turn the tank they are not breathing off? I would think this a very safe practice according to pony turned off to prevent accidental freeflow logic. This would be especially relevant when the dive has been turned and the gas in that cylinder is being held in reserve.
Funny how we never hear that being discussed...
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Basking Ridge Diver
Contributor
Good point - you would hope that someone could wait long enough (notice I am not saying hold your breath...) to crack open a pony bottle (assuming it is slung) and find the reg - a bottle does not need to be entirely open before the 2nd stage gets charged for a breath. Since I have never mounted a pony in back - I have no idea if that is feasible to reach back and open without doffing the BC for access.
Assuming that a seasoned person is using a pony this exercise does not seem completely out of touch. The next step if it is not possible to open the pony or the pony is empty - you are heading up with a CESA...
Same for the reg - you can mount it anyway you want but to assume you can trade regs without a missed breath has not been my experience. At some point you need to be calm and replace with a new reg where you last clipped or stored it.
DaleC
Contributor
I think my point was that, in recreational diving, we are taught never to secure an octo in a way that one cannot immediately donate it ie. no boltsnaps or stuffing it in a pocket. Sidemount and independent double divers often discuss how to secure the reg they are not using in some quick release method. Yet people will suggest turning off ponies - which flies in the face of this paradigm. That being: putting a step between immediate donation (even to yourself).
That is because the whole idea of charging and turning off a bottle comes from the technical realm and not the recreational realm and is a practice developed under very different circumstances. People are transposing a set of SOP's from one realm to the other without considering the parameters that they were developed in. I have already listed them: that you don't just go to a bottle when you have an acute issue - you isolate and breath backgas, that bottles often contain different gasses, that reg hoses are traced back to source, that bottle contents are verified before breathing.
Auxiliary bottle use in the technical realm has it's own set of paradigms that technical divers would not suggest altering by transposing recreational SOP's. Imagine a rec diver suggesting leaving deco bottles on and just going to them in an OOA event. Tech divers would howl and list the reasons why that violates the paradigm of safety that they function under. Yet those same divers suggest turning pony bottles off in the rec realm without considering the paradigm that those divers function under.
I call BS and provide the challenge.
Here's another question that illustrates the logic error:
In the technical realm most divers use isolation manifold doubles and leave the isolator valve open (other than Akimbo who is the only person I have ever heard advocate progressive isolation). When they have a failure they go through a valve shutdown to isolate that failure. Why don't they just dive with the isolator closed. This would ensure they have a reserve that would not be lost due to accidental freeflow and they should be able to open the isolator during a failure. If you think about it that is what is being suggested to the rec diver. To that diver, the pony is akin to the left side of the doubles rig. It is left open and ready to go to just as the doubles are. Suggesting otherwise is like me suggesting doubles divers close the isolator as a routine SOP during the dive.
That is because the whole idea of charging and turning off a bottle comes from the technical realm and not the recreational realm and is a practice developed under very different circumstances. People are transposing a set of SOP's from one realm to the other without considering the parameters that they were developed in. I have already listed them: that you don't just go to a bottle when you have an acute issue - you isolate and breath backgas, that bottles often contain different gasses, that reg hoses are traced back to source, that bottle contents are verified before breathing.
Auxiliary bottle use in the technical realm has it's own set of paradigms that technical divers would not suggest altering by transposing recreational SOP's. Imagine a rec diver suggesting leaving deco bottles on and just going to them in an OOA event. Tech divers would howl and list the reasons why that violates the paradigm of safety that they function under. Yet those same divers suggest turning pony bottles off in the rec realm without considering the paradigm that those divers function under.
I call BS and provide the challenge.
Here's another question that illustrates the logic error:
In the technical realm most divers use isolation manifold doubles and leave the isolator valve open (other than Akimbo who is the only person I have ever heard advocate progressive isolation). When they have a failure they go through a valve shutdown to isolate that failure. Why don't they just dive with the isolator closed. This would ensure they have a reserve that would not be lost due to accidental freeflow and they should be able to open the isolator during a failure. If you think about it that is what is being suggested to the rec diver. To that diver, the pony is akin to the left side of the doubles rig. It is left open and ready to go to just as the doubles are. Suggesting otherwise is like me suggesting doubles divers close the isolator as a routine SOP during the dive.
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