DIR- GUE Input and Advice on my GUE Training Path and GUE Courses

[tbone1004]

I’m seeing nothing about actually going diving and enjoying it. Just classes.

you don’t need a to be in a class to dive Monterey. Or a in a class to dive doubles. Or a class to learn more about GUE and how things are done.

I think you’ll find that class after class is just unfulfilling.

so here is a potential counter to that as well as @Manatee Diver and while I don't know @OctoHelm , this was my experience and may be his.

I come out of an academic diving program which is both a blessing and a curse. I actually find a lot of enjoyment out of practicing in a pool. That may be because I also play several instruments professionally and have spent a lot of time in the "shed" with those, but the thousands of hours in that pool in front of the mirrors was actually very enjoyable to me perfecting all of the small things. I agree that you need to actually go out and dive and enjoy it, and that was kind of what brought me back to the post I made above about having to scale my diving way back.
Doing what is "piddly stuff" compared to our normal dives allows you to really focus on the little things *not to mention coming from a drysuit with big heavy doubles and stages to a single AL80 making you feel like a buoyancy god!*. If you find enjoyment out of practicing things in the pool and really trying to hone and perfect those skills, then good for you! There is not nearly enough of that done these days, and my practice time now is when I'm on deco. We don't emphasize practicing those skills nearly enough these days. Now there is obviously the side that you have spent this time and effort perfecting the skills to aim for true mastery and now you have to actually use them when you're diving. That isn't necessarily focusing on the classes, but some people think that that is the only time they really get to do that.

To @OctoHelm the excitement and passion is there, no one is questioning that and I commend you for coming out and talking to a wide variety of people and you are getting advice from some big hitters in the technical side of diving on this thread. While guys like AJ and I disagree on many things quite openly, one thing that we have always agreed on is the concept of beginning with the end in mind and only taking classes that make sense to get you there. The industry pushes for as many cards as possible because that is how the agencies make their money. We didn't get the full picture of your training history and end goals in the beginning which has changed the path of this thread.
While this is a bit hypocritical because I don't actually have one, you really need an AOW and nitrox card to deal with most dive operators. It sounds like you have those, so you're covered. You want to get to T1, and to do that you need Fundies with a Tech Pass. You have all of the other pre-reqs.
You've said you want the following

• Experience in the water in Monterey
• Experience in doubles
• A working, and thorough understanding of how to dive safely with hyperoxic trimix (TriOx)
• More experience with GUE and the way they train
• A tech pass from Rec 2

Experience in Monterey doesn't require anything other than what you have now.
Experience in doubles does not require anything other than what you have now-you could take the GUE primer, but if you are being mentored by a T1 diver, I wouldn't think that would be necessary...
TriOx -contentious topic, but I don't really see a need for it. Triox is very expensive, and unless you are doing a lot of high exertion dives in the 100ft ish range or whatever GUE's depth limit is for it, I wouldn't bother with it.
More experience with GUE-fundamentals was written exactly for this reason
Tech pass-no need if you get a tech pass from Fundies.

I think you need to listen to AJ and look at the kind of diving you really want to do and if it needs triox but not normoxic trimix, then look at Rec2, but understand the cost. A fill in double 100's goes from like $20 to $60 for rough scale *filling 1200 to 3600psi of 30/30 vs 32%, obviously without knowing specifics about your gas prices. It's not egregious, but for me I'd be looking for more diving a bit shallower or with less exertion and be able to do 3x the dives for the same money...

 

[RTodd]

It sounds as if cost isn't a huge issue. Given that, go take fundamentals now. That course, more than any other is about learning. The card doesn't matter until you know you want to go further. Do it in a single tank. It will teach you to nail the fundamentals and coming back and later doing it in doubles is easy.

My son has only ever dived with me (my training pre-dates GUE but was with JJ) or even more experienced divers. So, he may have a slight advantage in mentorship but is sounds like you have a great mentor. He informally took fundamentals because there are limits to what kids can learn from dad and immediately went from looking good in the water to having better technique than most of the 500+ dive a year DMs on the boat. Kids your age learn fast and the tweaks to your form, etc. you get from fundamentals is amazing and will make your diving more fun. Stop focusing on all the steps, go take fundamentals and then just go diving. You have two years to decide if you even want to take T1.

 

[rjack321]

I think you need to listen to AJ and look at the kind of diving you really want to do and if it needs triox but not normoxic trimix, then look at Rec2, but understand the cost. A fill in double 100's goes from like $20 to $60 for rough scale *filling 1200 to 3600psi of 30/30 vs 32%, obviously without knowing specifics about your gas prices. It's not egregious, but for me I'd be looking for more diving a bit shallower or with less exertion and be able to do 3x the dives for the same money...

the MOD for 30/30 is 100ft, same as for 32%.

A set of double 100s with 30/30 is going to cost you way more than $60 on most of the west coast. Depending on the shop, $80 to $150+. A complete waste of money, exactly nobody in the Puget Sound region is diving 30/30. The UTD folks (what is left of them) dive 25/25. The GUE folks dive 32% to 100ft and 21/35 below. The TDI people are diving air or EAN25 or something like that.

 

[CheckedBubbles]

the MOD for 30/30 is 100ft, same as for 32%.

A set of double 100s with 30/30 is going to cost you way more than $60 on most of the west coast. Depending on the shop, $80 to $150+. A complete waste of money, exactly nobody in the Puget Sound region is diving 30/30. The UTD folks (what is left of them) dive 25/25. The GUE folks dive 32% to 100ft and 21/35 below. The TDI people are diving air or EAN25 or something like that.

A full 200 cuft of 30/30 would probably cost like $120 in the shop I use.

Also, yes, no one here is diving 30/30. Rec 2 really doesn't give you anything if you take fundies, and I've actually never heard of anyone locally taking it. Take fundies, join BAUE, meet a bunch of GUE-trained buddies, go diving.

 

[OctoHelm]

I also arch my back instinctively. I'm always trying to improve it, even after getting a Tech Pass. The trick is keeping your butt flexed and round your lower back into your backplate. Keep your head up and your arms out in front. With practice (and going to Fundies) you'll see a big improvement.

Ok, good to know. As Beto says "Tighten the gluteus!" I'll try to keep that in mind for when I'm in Monterey this Sunday.

Did I miss a memo? Since when does Rec 2 allow one to take Tech 1?

My instructor proposed this as a possible path that I can take to T1. She works with Beto, our local GUE instructor regularly. I have not looked in the literature to confirm this however.

I’m seeing nothing about actually going diving and enjoying it. Just classes.

you don’t need a to be in a class to dive Monterey. Or a in a class to dive doubles. Or a class to learn more about GUE and how things are done.

I think you’ll find that class after class is just unfulfilling.

@PfcAJ You certainly do have a strong point there. I have heard stories of people who burnt out because of constant drilling. That is definitely something I need to pay attention to. I'm heading to Monterey for some fun dives for a change of pace, so that should be nice. There is definitely something to be said for just going out and diving. The next question is then would the class help me with when I go out to dive for fun? I took my AOW thorugh PADI, and it never really challenged me. If this is the GUE equivalent, then I have no doubt that it will be more rigorous though.

This. Take fundies. Then go diving with the GUE community. Stop rushing towards some certification goal, and enjoy the skills that you will gain from fundies. And stop trying to pretrain for fundies - No really, stop it. It won't help you, and may well hinder you.

Hello @johnkendall!

A few questions:

• If I get a rec pass, does GUE still require me to take my tech pass within six months if I want to go to T1?
• Should I dive on a single with the GUE community, or should I move to doubles?
• Should I just keep diving for fun until fundies?

Thank you so much for your input! I will talk to Beto and/or Mer to see when they are running fundies next so I can get the ball rolling on that.

On the back-arching tangent: I'm a back-archer when I start to get cold. If I rotate my shoulders forward against the webbing (like I'm going to rip the back of a t-shirt open Hulk-style), that presses my back against the plate and stretches my back muscles out a bit. I have good posture and a natural lumbar arch so maybe that contributes to arching when the muscles tighten up.

Ok, that's good. I'll try to remember it for when I head out again.

so here is a potential counter to that as well as @Manatee Diver and while I don't know @OctoHelm , this was my experience and may be his.

I come out of an academic diving program which is both a blessing and a curse. I actually find a lot of enjoyment out of practicing in a pool. That may be because I also play several instruments professionally and have spent a lot of time in the "shed" with those, but the thousands of hours in that pool in front of the mirrors was actually very enjoyable to me perfecting all of the small things. I agree that you need to actually go out and dive and enjoy it, and that was kind of what brought me back to the post I made above about having to scale my diving way back.
Doing what is "piddly stuff" compared to our normal dives allows you to really focus on the little things *not to mention coming from a drysuit with big heavy doubles and stages to a single AL80 making you feel like a buoyancy god!*. If you find enjoyment out of practicing things in the pool and really trying to hone and perfect those skills, then good for you! There is not nearly enough of that done these days, and my practice time now is when I'm on deco. We don't emphasize practicing those skills nearly enough these days. Now there is obviously the side that you have spent this time and effort perfecting the skills to aim for true mastery and now you have to actually use them when you're diving. That isn't necessarily focusing on the classes, but some people think that that is the only time they really get to do that.

To @OctoHelm the excitement and passion is there, no one is questioning that and I commend you for coming out and talking to a wide variety of people and you are getting advice from some big hitters in the technical side of diving on this thread. While guys like AJ and I disagree on many things quite openly, one thing that we have always agreed on is the concept of beginning with the end in mind and only taking classes that make sense to get you there. The industry pushes for as many cards as possible because that is how the agencies make their money. We didn't get the full picture of your training history and end goals in the beginning which has changed the path of this thread.
While this is a bit hypocritical because I don't actually have one, you really need an AOW and nitrox card to deal with most dive operators. It sounds like you have those, so you're covered. You want to get to T1, and to do that you need Fundies with a Tech Pass. You have all of the other pre-reqs.
You've said you want the following

• Experience in the water in Monterey
• Experience in doubles
• A working, and thorough understanding of how to dive safely with hyperoxic trimix (TriOx)
• More experience with GUE and the way they train
• A tech pass from Rec 2

Experience in Monterey doesn't require anything other than what you have now.
Experience in doubles does not require anything other than what you have now-you could take the GUE primer, but if you are being mentored by a T1 diver, I wouldn't think that would be necessary...
TriOx -contentious topic, but I don't really see a need for it. Triox is very expensive, and unless you are doing a lot of high exertion dives in the 100ft ish range or whatever GUE's depth limit is for it, I wouldn't bother with it.
More experience with GUE-fundamentals was written exactly for this reason
Tech pass-no need if you get a tech pass from Fundies.

I think you need to listen to AJ and look at the kind of diving you really want to do and if it needs triox but not normoxic trimix, then look at Rec2, but understand the cost. A fill in double 100's goes from like $20 to $60 for rough scale *filling 1200 to 3600psi of 30/30 vs 32%, obviously without knowing specifics about your gas prices. It's not egregious, but for me I'd be looking for more diving a bit shallower or with less exertion and be able to do 3x the dives for the same money...

Heya @tbone1004!

Thank you so much for your very thorough reply.

I do find working in the pool to be useful, but the real test is seeing how the 12 hours in the pool translate to my diving. I do think it is nice to work in the pool to get things dialed. Staring at the blue isn't as interesting as a kelp forest or coral reefs, but if it makes me a better diver, then I am all for it.

With all of the input, I think Rec 2 is off the table for the time being. I might as well save the money and put it towards diving, a charter, a dive computer, can light or something that I need. It's good to know why the industry pushes the classes as well.

I see that you mentioned not knowing the full picture of my training history. Also, my training goals as we stand now are to at least get me to T1. I want to get there, and once I do, I think I ought to revisit where, and what I want to do with regards to my diving career.

Thank you so much for your reply!

And to everyone, you are all truly so helpful. I cannot thank you enough for all of the input that I have gotten about this.

Thanks again, and be well!

Respectfully,

OctoHelm

 

[rjack321]

• If I get a rec pass, does GUE still require me to take my tech pass within six months if I want to go to T1?
• Should I dive on a single with the GUE community, or should I move to doubles?
• Should I just keep diving for fun until fundies?

1) There's no obligation to upgrade to a tech pass in any specific time frame
2) There is nothing wrong with singles
3) What else would you do? quit?

 

[johnkendall]

1) There's no obligation to upgrade to a tech pass in any specific time frame
2) There is nothing wrong with singles
3) What else would you do? quit?

Exactly this. A Rec pass is a pass, there is no time limit, nor obligation to upgrade. If you want to upgrade, then that can happen whenever.
Have you done any diving in doubles? If not, then stick to single tank for now. Doubles are heavy, they have more momentum, so require much better skills to move around, particularly regarding the back-kick, if the dives are suitable for single tank, then just dive single tank.

Why do I say "don't pretrain for fundies"? The reason is that I have had dozens of people who try and do this, and none of them have practiced the right things in the right ways. That then puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to the class. The fundies class is there to *teach* you, practice comes after that. You can't practice until you know what *you* need to practice. Just go diving, learn to enjoy the diving. I know that the challenge of training can be exciting/fulfilling, but if you want to still be diving in 10 years time, you need to learn to enjoy it now. Go learn about the native sealife in your area, or the history of the local wrecks, or the specific geology in your area (or all of the above). I see lots of people who rush through classes and then quit diving altogether, because they never learned to be passionate divers.

HTH
John

 

[PfcAJ]

@PfcAJ You certainly do have a strong point there. I have heard stories of people who burnt out because of constant drilling. That is definitely something I need to pay attention to. I'm heading to Monterey for some fun dives for a change of pace, so that should be nice. There is definitely something to be said for just going out and diving. The next question is then would the class help me with when I go out to dive for fun? I took my AOW thorugh PADI, and it never really challenged me. If this is the GUE equivalent, then I have no doubt that it will be more rigorous though.

fundamentals and AOW are just different.

Fundamentals is skill development and an into to team based diving. Academics on gas volumes, a wee bit of basic deco theory. AOW is more of a diving sampler platter with an instructor. They’re just... different. And serve different purposes. I don’t think AOW is designed to be challenging. It’s designed to be helpful to new divers.

fundamentals (skill development& academics) makes all diving easier. It’ll help you integrate with the GUE folks since you’ll all be speaking the same language.

really though you need to be diving for fun. Otherwise that’s the point? So you can drop to 20’ and turn valves and share long hoses practicing for diving you’ll never do because you don’t like to dive or b) have been convinced that your skills are never good enough to do anything but practice? Crazy talk. But it happens all the time.

and no you absolutely don’t need two tanks to do dives you can do on single tanks.

 

[beester]

I feel a bit silly quoting myself but just to repeat... find what you love (in diving) and then do it.

- Progression into tech and cave and whatnot! I understand the focus on progression (you are new to diving), but don't focus too much on the technicality of courses and progression. I know quite a bunch of "technical" divers with full cave / full trimix certs that are just laying around somewhere, because they are not doing the dives. They focused on getting the certs, but didn't know why they needed them!!

You need to find out what you LOVE about diving and live in general! Not an easy question and it constantly changes, but you should always keep that in the back of your mind, what do I love about doing this, and pursue that! It's very personal but you need to find that. Why do you want a T1? What do you want to do with it?

Everybody who responds here, has many many dives under his/her belt... they do it because they probably just love being underwater, the simple fact of diving! But most also because they are passionate about something and incorporate this into their diving. Whether that is teaching others, mentoring others, could be video or photo, could be 3D modelling, could be organising and working together on diving projects, could be the history behind a wreck, geology, writing articles and getting published, cleaning ghost nets from the seabed, ... the certificat or "diving level" is just a means to an end!